Atlantic Ocean circulation is weakest in at least 1,600 years ( 2/26/21 ) .

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Data point of one:

I live in Jupiter, FL and the Gulf Stream is quite close to shore. I am here to tell you it's every bit as strong as I remember it to be. It WILL move you North at very predictable rates. For those who don't know, Jupiter, FL is the ocean shoreline due East of lake Okeechobee (the big lake in the graphic)

By the way, the Gulf Stream current averages about 4mph and is faster on the surface, in some places the surface current reaches nearly 5.5mph. This greatly affects search and rescue. People still look in the area where last contact is made (they were doing this yesterday for a downed airplane) and fail to take into account the 5+mph surface speed and the time from last contact. Amazing really.

And, NO the local Gulfstream is not slower this year.

It's well known to the locals that if one simply stops their fishing boat a mile off shore of the Jupiter inlet, in 3 hours, the boat will be 16 miles north at the Stuart, FL Inlet. Makes for a nice afternoon drift.


https://www.passageweather.com/maps/florida/m_ncom.htm

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I'm not a scientist or a science writer, so I posted links to the studies. It would be interesting to know what you make of them, and how they answer the questions above.
I think I expressed my thoughts earlier in Post #39 and my answer was no:

MolaKule said:
Just curious, is there any mention anywhere in the paper for the theory of natural cyclic variations verses the supposed contributions by modern man?

Secondly, how could anyone know what these fossilized creatures "preferred" in terms of their environment before internment? Could these fossilized creatures have not simply and naturally adapted to their environments before fossilization?

What we have here is supposition based upon prior supposition - ad infinitum. I.e., they are assuming one theory supports another theory higher up the hypothetical chain when no single theory in the chain can stand on its own.

But let me elaborate with background information on Atmospheric Modeling:

Model falsifiabilityandclimateslow modes;Physica A said:
The most advanced climate models are actually modified meteorological models attempting to capture climate in meteorological terms. This seems a straightforward matter of raw computing power applied to large enough sources of current data. Some believe that models have succeeded in capturing climate in this manner. But have they? This paper outlines difficulties with this picture that derive from the finite representation of our computers, and the fundamental unavailability of future data instead. It suggests that alternative windows onto the multi-decadal timescales are necessary in order to overcome the issues raised for practical problems of prediction. In contrast, employing meteorologically-based computer models for climate is a program to capture climate in meteorological terms. Describing those models as models of climate overlooks the central scientific problem that they must address. They are forced to search for what climate actually is within those terms. Thus there is an important distinction between the kinetic-laboratory scale problem and the meteorology-climate problem. The latter is a far more ambitious scientific problem. No matter how difficult the path leading from the kinetic regime was, there was always the clear guiding principle that the path had to end at the laboratory regime, which was and is fully known. Unlike the kinetic analogue, the meteorological path has no clear end point. There is no rigorous, physically-based regime to aim for that is known a priori. There is no choice but to search for what climate actually is in meteorological terms, in addition to navigating the search over a path fundamentally handicapped by a truncated physics necessitated by the finiteness of our tools.

There are many different types of climate models. Some are purely didactic, for which there is no specific expectation of prediction. The more advanced models are meteorologically based and are presented as ‘‘simulations’’ used for climate ‘‘projections’’. This common terminology about what climate models are and what they do is telling. A ‘‘projection’’ holds a more modest claim on the future than a prediction, and ‘‘simulation’’ suggests imitation rather than a representation of the thing itself-neither represents the qualities aspired to by a field rooted in rigorous physics. Even ‘‘model’’ is used in a manner different from other fields of science. The standard model of physics, for example, is subject to falsification. If it fails to make correct predictions in controlled experiments, it is false. Projections are not good enough there. Even in astrophysics, models explain phenomena that are normally subject to falsification through broad questions asked about multiple occurrences of similar physical circumstances, even in highly data-starved contexts. What makes climate models fundamentally different is that they are presented as being unfalsifiable. Even when they deviate from actual observations, they are not superseded by a better competing model. Deviations simply invite some retuning. Moreover instead of replacement by better models retuning leads to all models becoming more alike...Finding a theory for climate within the physics of the laboratory regime is, of course, roughly analogous to trying to extract the fluid mechanics of the laboratory regime from the microscopic chaos of kinetic theory [26,27]. Even the range of scales between the kinetic and laboratory regimes is similar in size to the corresponding range between the laboratory and climate regimes.

The explanation of the laboratory scales in terms of kinetic ones has historically been fraught with deep difficulties, which inspired great endeavors in perturbation theory and even whole new fields such as ergodic theory, and it ultimately became one of the major roots of modern dynamical systems theory and chaos. In contrast, employing meteorologically-based computer models for climate is a program to capture climate in meteorological terms. Describing those models as models of climate overlooks the central scientific problem that they must address. They are forced to search for what climate actually is within those terms. Thus there is an important distinction between the kinetic-laboratory scale problem and the meteorology-climate problem. The latter is a far more ambitious scientific problem. No matter how difficult the path leading from the kinetic regime was, there was always the clear guiding principle that the path had to end at the laboratory regime, which was and is fully known. Unlike the kinetic analogue, the meteorological path has no clear end point. There is no rigorous, physically-based regime to aim for that is known a priori. There is no choice but to search for what climate actually is in meteorological terms, in addition to navigating the search over a path fundamentally handicapped by a truncated physics necessitated by the finiteness of our tools...
Essex and Tsonis, Model falsifiability and climate slow modes; Physica A, Elsevier. [emphasis mine.]

In other words, climate models are forced to search for a solution (or solutions) in which the complete set of Atmospheric Physics is unknown.

This results in "predictions" with great Uncertainty and Variability. Variability is defined as: the extent to which data points in a statistical distribution or data set diverge—vary—from the average value, as well as the extent to which these data points differ from each other.

So in summation, atmospheric modeling is a forced exercise void of any testability and any laboratory verification, and in which the predictions vary so widely (uncertain) they cannot be reliable, and should not be used to drive energy policy.

And if these models cannot be falsifiable, then they are not scientific.
 
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Any mathematical model used for simulation can be tainted by ideological and personal biases.

The word "Suggest" is often used in scientific papers to inject presuppositions (assumptions and conjectures) that have nothing to do with the actual science.

"...Until a little more than 10 years ago scientists did not have any direct measurements of the AMOC to see how it was actually responding...."

So there is no real historical data to put into any of the simulation models to make any real predictions.


Exactly ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just like any real historical hurricane activity too. When I hear garbage like.... "A cat 5 hit the northern Florida coast never happened before".... That's nonsense. I don't think Chief Seminole had a barometer or anemometer way back in time. Nor the Spanish conquistadors or the French or the British either....

Anywhere and I mean anywhere along the entirety of the Gulf of Mexico coastline can easily have a cat 5 hurricane make landfall on. Why??? #1 Obviously water temps above 30 degrees Celsius is common throughout the entire GOM. That much latent heat is needed to sustain and build a cat 4 or stronger hurricane. #2... Deep warm water.... The Loop current is in the Gulf of Mexico and it is typical for most of the Gulf waters to have warm water at deepth.... #3 Low latitude... This helps because.... Strong upper level winds aka the Westerlies.... Are not has prevalent in the Gulf of Mexico... Yes those winds can get that far south.. no doubt. However, it is not unusual for upper level winds aka shear to be low in the Gulf. Especially in the southern Gulf of Mexico. And if upper level winds are set in a way in which shear from the Westerlies is low aka less than 10 knots even less than 5 knots.... A cat 5 like Hurricane Camille in 1969 or Hurricane Michael can allow for a storm to strengthen or maintain extremely high intensity until landfall. The only reason why Hurricane Katrina dropped from 175 mph to 130 mph at landfall was strong west southwest shear from the Westerlies. The same phenomena is true on the east coast of Florida too by the way.... So a cat 5 hitting anywhere along the Gulf of Mexico coastline or the east coast of Florida...... Is NOT atypical. #4 The NHC was talking about a very prolonged active hurricane season in the mid 1990s going forward.... Aka the Cape Verde season was going to pick up.... Many people forget.... Florida had not had a really major strong hurricane hit from the Labor Day hurricane in 1935 until..... Hurricane Andrew in 1992. The population growth in Florida in those 60 years was because over time people had forgotten about how possible it was for major hurricanes to hit that state. Plus the growth along the coastal areas make many, many people very vulnerable as well. Again there many very strong hurricanes hit Florida in the 1920s.... And many, many people died in several of those very strong hurricanes.

People don't realize but hurricane monitoring was PRIMITIVE until really the 1960s.... Until the use of satellites and aircraft NO ONE really had any real idea what was happening in the ocean waters. Before that it was random ship reports....
And hopefully those ships had a barometer and a anemometer... Look back at the Long Island express Hurricane of 1938.... No one on Long Island or the Connecticut coastline inew what was barreling at them even just hours before landfall... A cat 3 almost cat 4 was heading northward at nearly 60 mph.

When or if I see a cat 5 hitting north of say Cape Hatteras.... Then that would truly be note worthy.... A cat 5 hitting Florida or anywhere along the Gulf of Mexico coastline is not outside the realm of possibility. It like having a EF 5 tornado hit Oklahoma City.... Now if you have a EF 5 hit in northern Minnesota.... That would be rather unusual.


Computer models can easily be totally illegitimate and set up for someone's ideas.


I have looked at thousand and thousands of computer models runs in forecasting weather. The GFS and NAM overall are good models. They are only partial tools in weather forecasting.

But they can be wrong at times. It is amazing to see just how drastic a chance TYPICALLY happens in day 10-16 days out forecasting.... Even big changes in the longwave Jetstream pattern can be quite different.
 
I learned how to read those computer models back in 2003-04.....

Again... They are just a tool. No perfect... Far from it....

Example just recently.....

A storm track changed 500 miles.... To the southeast in just 6 computer model runs... Eaach computer model run is 6 hours apart.

What looked to be a warm and rain event in my area..... Turned into a winter storm setup with freezing rain happening. Again..... 500 mile difference in a very short period of time.

I have many, many more examples of that happening.

Plus many examples of poor model interpretation and application of those models.



I have also seen in 2003 the models hitting the track of Hurricane Isabel almost perfectly 5 days ahead of time. And I mean almost perfectly.

Models are a tool. Not perfect.

And can easily be misread or misinterpreted.
 
I think I expressed my thoughts earlier in Post #39 and my answer was no:



But let me elaborate with background information on Atmospheric Modeling:


Essex and Tsonis, Model falsifiability and climate slow modes; Physica A, Elsevier. [emphasis mine.]

In other words, climate models are forced to search for a solution in which the complete set of Atmospheric Physics is unknown.

This results in "predictions" with great Uncertainty and Variability. Variability is defined as: the extent to which data points in a statistical distribution or data set diverge—vary—from the average value, as well as the extent to which these data points differ from each other.

So in summation, atmospheric (climate) modeling is a forced exercise void of any testability and any laboratory verification, and in which the predictions vary so widely (uncertain) they cannot be reliable, and should not be used to drive or define energy policy.

And if these models cannot be falsifiable, then they are not scientific.
Can we make this post a sticky?
 
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Not sure about your local weatherman
But where I live they can’t predict the weather correctly for 10 days in a row. So I have little faith than anybody knows what happen 1600 years ago with any degree of being close to right.
Most statements like what happen 1600 years ago falls into the SWAG category

1) My local weatherman doesnt predict the weather, neither does yours or anyone else’s. They convey weather predictions generated by computers and then given to them for on-air dissemination. They will often make educated guesses to fill in unknowable details of interest to the viewer, but they are asked to provide this by their viewers, not the other way around.

2) Requiring 10 straight days of “correct“ weather predictions from your local TV weather person should only be used as a test to decide on continued viewership of that station’s weather forecasts.

If they aren’t meeting your standards for successive successful weather predictions, switch to a competing stations’s broadcasts and begin consuming their weather forecasts. If they cannot meet your vague requirement, switch to another station‘s weather broadcasts. And so on, and so forth.

If you are unable to find a weather team that satisfies your forecast requirements, an evaluation if your requirements needs to be performed. Revise them, and start all over again with the forecasting success/failure testing. Surely you will find a weather person that suits you.

3) The amount of faith you have in the accuracy of historical data as written about by scientists studying that data is irrelevant in a discussion about the accuracy of the data. In fact, it is best to leave one’s faith at the door when discussion such data.

Read the papers as written, evaluate the information set forth, take into account referenced data where possible. Then make your decision on the likely accuracy of the data.

That is the approach I would recommend to anyone interested in the topic at hand. It has worked well for me in the past, others too.

Although to be fair, I’m sure you will say the same thing about your approach.

Who knows, maybe I will try steadfastly maintaining an intractable position and refuse to consider opposing stances on the grounds that a local TV person can’t tell me details about events that have yet to occur. Stay tuned for future updates to see how well it works for me...
 
Rhymingmechanic said:
I'm not a scientist or a science writer, so I posted links to the studies. It would be interesting to know what you make of them, and how they answer the questions above.
I think I expressed my thoughts earlier in Post #39 and my answer was no:

MolaKule said:
Just curious, is there any mention anywhere in the paper for the theory of natural cyclic variations verses the supposed contributions by modern man?

Secondly, how could anyone know what these fossilized creatures "preferred" in terms of their environment before internment? Could these fossilized creatures have not simply and naturally adapted to their environments before fossilization?

What we have here is supposition based upon prior supposition - ad infinitum. I.e., they are assuming one theory supports another theory higher up the hypothetical chain when no single theory in the chain can stand on its own.

My mistake. I took post #39 as questions that could be answered by reading the studies themselves. I got a fair understanding of the basic content, but I'm not equipped to evaluate the validity of methods or data the way someone with a scientific background could.
 
I agree! In 4th grade we learned about the ice age and Pangea. Our world was changing and will continue to change with or without us. And often at different rates.

My house in the desert was once under the Sea! I have petrified tree stumps on my property as well as sea shell fossils in rocks.
When our well was drilled in central FL the boring was full of shark teeth.
 
I think I expressed my thoughts earlier in Post #39 and my answer was no:



My mistake. I took post #39 as questions that could be answered by reading the studies themselves. I got a fair understanding of the basic content, but I'm not equipped to evaluate the validity of methods or data the way someone with a scientific background could.
No problem but I was quoting your comments in hopes those questions I posed could be answered, as this subject goes beyond mere assertions stated in a paper.

[Assertion: a claim or opinion offered that is assumed to be true without any evidence].

We have to ask if these simulation studies are really following the scientific method? Where are the laboratory results, the instrumentation results, the observational results that supports this original Hypothesis?

In terms of falsification, an honest and ethical scientific paper will state something like this: Here is my (our) theory on what we think is occurring, here is our empirical data that we think supports it, and here is the criterion for falsification to disprove our theory. In none of these studies have I ever seen a falsification criterion statement made. Rather it is assumed, it is a given and that the Hypothesis is already true, but this is NOT the way science is supposed to work, nor is it the way science has worked historically.

Should we dump the historically proven scientific method and pretend simulations alone are real science?

[Empirical: derived from or guided by experience or experiment; provable or verifiable by experience or experiment].

In other words, science does not stand on simulations alone, but rests on supporting laboratory (testable and repeatable data), and observational data to prove any hypothesis and to validate any simulation.

In terms of observational data, one has to frame the observational data in terms of the following: is it based on proper scientific deduction (is it a reasonable deduction that makes sense in light of scientific laws), is your personal bias and belief system influencing the results (scientists are humans - not robots), and is it scientifically consistent with other, prior observations.
 
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I am always reminded by an exchange that took place in Science magazine between C.L. Bennett and the editor of Science magazine:

"...Furthermore, science doesn’t 'prove' theories. C.L. Bennet made the following statement in Science, Vol. 332, 10 June 2011: Science Title Misstep: THE TITLE OF THE 6 MAY NEWS OF THE WEEK story ‘At long last, Gravity Probe B satellite proves Einstein right’ (p. 649) made me cringe. I find myself frequently repeating to students and the public that science doesn’t “prove” theories. Scientific measurements can only disprove theories or be consistent with them. Any theory that is consistent with measurements could be disproved by a future measurement. I wouldn’t have expected Science magazine, of all places, to say a theory was “proved.” CHARLES L. BENNETT Department of Physics and Astronomy, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD 21218, USA. E-mail: [email protected]

Response: Bennett is completely correct. It’s an important conceptual point, and we blew it. COLIN NORMAN News Editor.”

http://www.psych.nyu.edu/carrascolab/people/Science-2011-Carmel-1262.pdf
 
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I wonder how they measured circulation 1600 years ago?
I haven't read the article but my guess is that it has something to do with the amount of freshwater (Polar/Glacial melt) entering the system. Ice coverage can be measured. For example the Midwest US is full of Moraines which are mounds of dirt/rubble left behind as the Ice cap melted after the last ice age. Based upon the amount of fresh water locked up as ice an estimation can be made with regards to ocean salinity.
 
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Based upon the amount of fresh water locked up as ice an estimation can be made with regards to ocean salinity.
How much salinity was in the early ocean? Was the early ocean of fresh water that later became saline because of runoff due to streams and rivers? What was the historic rate of increasing salinity? What was the historic rate of fresh water mixing in the ocean?

I only ask these questions to show the difficulties of attempting to recreate the past with any scientific certainty.
 
How much salinity was in the early ocean? Was the early ocean of fresh water that later became saline because of runoff due to streams and rivers? What was the historic rate of increasing salinity? What was the historic rate of fresh water mixing in the ocean?

I only ask these questions to show the difficulties of attempting to recreate the past with any scientific certainty.
Oceans were always salt because water is a natural solvent and when saltwater evaporates it leaves the minerals behind which increase the salinity of the ocean water. In addition you can tell by the fossil record of what was living in oceans at the time. There plenty of ocean species around today which have been on earth for millions of years. As for the rate of increase that's easy because freshwater is locked up as ice. The biggest ice stores are glaciers and the poles. This ice is predom made from snow. Snow is freshwater. In any case 1,600 years ago is a blink of an eye. That's 420 AD. Plenty of records of what was going on at the time.

The article is just mentioning a phenomena which last occurred approx 1,600 yrs ago.
 
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Oceans were always salt because water is a natural solvent and when saltwater evaporates it leaves the minerals behind which increase the salinity of the ocean water. In addition you can tell by the fossil record of what was living in oceans at the time. There plenty of ocean species around today which have been on earth for millions of years. As for the rate of increase that's easy because freshwater is locked up as ice. The biggest ice stores are glaciers and the poles. This ice is predom made from snow. Snow is freshwater. In any case 1,600 years ago is a blink of an eye. That's 420 AD. Plenty of records of what was going on at the time.

The article is just mentioA I stated earlier, ning a phenomena which last occurred approx 1,600 yrs ago.
Does anyone have a sample of ancient ocean water in which to test its salinity and pH? No we don't.

Does anyone have a DNA sample of ancient organisms in which to determine the organisms supposed preferences to salt or fresh water? No we don't.

As I stated earlier, attempting to recreate or to describe the conditions of the past is fraught with scientific problems, because the past conditions that existed are gone, and cannot be verified or recreated in any laboratory to support any theory of the conditions of the past.

One cannot make the assumption that geologic, biologic, or climatic conditions that exist today were the same conditions that existed in the past.
 
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Does anyone have a sample of ancient ocean water in which to test its salinity and pH? No we don't.

Does anyone have a DNA sample of ancient organisms in which to determine the organisms supposed preferences to salt or fresh water? No we don't.

As I stated earlier, attempting to recreate or to describe the conditions of the past is fraught with scientific problems, because the past conditions that existed are gone, and cannot be verified in any laboratory to support any theory of the conditions of the past.

One cannot make the assumption that conditions that exist today were the same conditions that existed in the past.
[Does anyone have a sample of ancient ocean water in which to test its salinity and pH? No we don't.]
- Actually, we do but that's besides the point. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...hers-find-ancient-seawater-had-twice-the-salt

[Does anyone have a DNA sample of ancient organisms in which to determine the organisms supposed preferences to salt or fresh water? No we don't.]
-Actually we do. There are a variety of ocean organisms which haven't changed in over a million years. (ex, sharks, crustaceans, mollusks, corals, etc.)

[As I stated earlier, attempting to recreate or to describe the conditions of the past is fraught with scientific problems, because the past conditions that existed are gone, and cannot be verified in any laboratory to support any theory of the conditions of the past.

One cannot make the assumption that conditions that exist today were the same conditions that existed in the past.]

-But they have been verified.
 
[Does anyone have a sample of ancient ocean water in which to test its salinity and pH? No we don't.]
- Actually, we do but that's besides the point. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...hers-find-ancient-seawater-had-twice-the-salt

[Does anyone have a DNA sample of ancient organisms in which to determine the organisms supposed preferences to salt or fresh water? No we don't.]
-Actually we do. There are a variety of ocean organisms which haven't changed in over a million years. (ex, sharks, crustaceans, mollusks, corals, etc.)

[As I stated earlier, attempting to recreate or to describe the conditions of the past is fraught with scientific problems, because the past conditions that existed are gone, and cannot be verified in any laboratory to support any theory of the conditions of the past.

One cannot make the assumption that conditions that exist today were the same conditions that existed in the past.]

-But they have been verified.
The seawater wasn't found in one large pool, but trapped in small pores and rock fractures — so there's no Cretaceous-era life swimming about in it, Sanford says. Still, there is a lot of it: about 3 trillion gallons — or one-sixth the volume of the modern Chesapeake Bay — he estimates.

How do they know that the salinity from various salts trapped in or adjacent to the rocks was not due to subsequent hydrothermal migration? They don't. It's a conjecture.

When the water was trapped 100 million or more years ago, "the Atlantic was a smaller ocean," he says.

And how do they know this? They don't. It's another conjecture.

Conjectures do not equal the rigor of scientific proofs.
 
This is why "peer review" is a poor argument for validity when a field is highly politicized and big bucks are driving the agenda.
There is no absolute truth in non reproducible science. Even if you are studying the past, if you cannot reproduce it in the future as it could be politicized.

The only truth in the world is winning and competition. This force human to find the closest thing to the truth: what works and what doesn't. This is why we need competition on every single level in human civilization or we start rotting from within.
 
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I think I expressed my thoughts earlier in Post #39 and my answer was no:



But let me elaborate with background information on Atmospheric Modeling:


Essex and Tsonis, Model falsifiability and climate slow modes; Physica A, Elsevier. [emphasis mine.]

In other words, climate models are forced to search for a solution (or solutions) in which the complete set of Atmospheric Physics is unknown.

This results in "predictions" with great Uncertainty and Variability. Variability is defined as: the extent to which data points in a statistical distribution or data set diverge—vary—from the average value, as well as the extent to which these data points differ from each other.

So in summation, atmospheric modeling is a forced exercise void of any testability and any laboratory verification, and in which the predictions vary so widely (uncertain) they cannot be reliable, and should not be used to drive energy policy.

And if these models cannot be falsifiable, then they are not scientific.
Yeah, but its the expert scientists in that fields best guess! Since we've only got one hospitable planet you might think we should be a bit careful with it?
Isn't subatomic particle physics a bit of a guessing game right now too? Yet we still use models and theories of how molecular physics works quite successfully to do all sorts of things without really understanding all the inner workings? It doesn't really matter though does it, we can make our motor oil or whatever using our incomplete understanding quite repeatably, and if a batch goes wrong, well its not world ending is it?
I guess that's the difference between lab science where things are so controlled and "simple" that its easy to make models that work, and climate science or geology or any natural science where a complete model is impossible. I guess for natural sciences having models and theories that seem correct "beyond a reasonable doubt" of the majority of peers will have to do. The current best models and theories should never be unquestionable though.
 
The seawater wasn't found in one large pool, but trapped in small pores and rock fractures — so there's no Cretaceous-era life swimming about in it, Sanford says. Still, there is a lot of it: about 3 trillion gallons — or one-sixth the volume of the modern Chesapeake Bay — he estimates.

How do they know that the salinity from various salts trapped in or adjacent to the rocks was not due to subsequent hydrothermal migration? They don't. It's a conjecture.

When the water was trapped 100 million or more years ago, "the Atlantic was a smaller ocean," he says.

And how do they know this? They don't. It's another conjecture.

Conjectures do not equal the rigor of scientific proofs.
Of course they know. There's carbon dating along with the type of rock in which the water was found and the "impermeable" rock around it. They know by looking at the fossil record. Certain species for example only live in tidal areas (ex Coral) or say you find non-aquatic fossils (ex, ferns, woody plants, mammals) . So if you find fossilized coral or whatever 100, 500 miles off the current coastline then you have a fairly good idea of the depth of the ocean.

Other examples would be the Bering Land Bridge. The melting of glaciers caused ocean levels to rise so up until 12,000 years ago you could walk from Canada to Vancouver Island. This is geology.
 
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