At the range with ballistic gelatin

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clarkflower

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Forgot steaks and tape measure 2 layers denim 32 Buffalo Barnes no expansion inverted about 13 inches left wad of denim about 7 inches? The other left the gel at 8 inches Lehigh 15 inches Sadly both the Leigh and Underwood had 2 fail to fire out each of 40. No jams....I shots 1000's of rounds without a fail to bang. I don't know how they consistently manage it. Same result last box and here all sorts of similar reports Hornady XTP and the hydra shock.. No expansion at all ; 8-10 inches 380 Winchester train defend huge expansion 8 -9 inches (see pic vs Sig..look like a different caliber lol 380 Critical defense expanded but a bit smaller than the sig 11 inches 380 Sig Sauer expanded 13 inches Buffalo Bore Barnes 38 (non plus p) was very impressive see pic from a 2" colt Wound tracks below seecamp
 
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While we're on the subject of ballistic gelatin, has anyone here worked with it? Is it a food type of product? Does it spoil, get smelly, or soft in warm temperatures? How is it stored, and what is it's shelf life? I have never physically seen it, touched it, or worked with it. But I have always wondered about it. I know the stuff isn't cheap, but it can be used over and over by "melting it down". Is there a limit on that, or does it have an indefinite rework life? Thanks in advance.
 
Critical defense is what I keep in my LCP. From the tests I’ve seen they look fine to me. It’s about all you’re gonna get from .380 anyways. Remember , as all cops are schooled you never shoot and wait to see how you did. Bull [censored]. Keep banging till the threat is no longer a threat. Far too many dead folks have shot some punk who in return killed them and limped away. Same goes for the big bore crowd. Don’t ever for a second think that your .45 or similar is going to bowl some guy over or you may well be in for a rude awakening. Equally true for a guy with a knife. Plug the puke and get some distance and keep him covered or you may find he will wade right through your next rounds and stab you dead. It’s happened way to many times so it’s worth mentioning as most people just don’t believe it. As always it’s not so much the caliber of that cannon but where you put those rounds even more so with a .380.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
While we're on the subject of ballistic gelatin, has anyone here worked with it? Is it a food type of product? Does it spoil, get smelly, or soft in warm temperatures? How is it stored, and what is it's shelf life? I have never physically seen it, touched it, or worked with it. But I have always wondered about it. I know the stuff isn't cheap, but it can be used over and over by "melting it down". Is there a limit on that, or does it have an indefinite rework life? Thanks in advance.
I bought it from this place and got it in 3 days. https://www.clearballistics.com/product-category/ballistic-gelatin/10-ballistic-gelatin/ It's nothing like Jello. It sat at room temp for 3 days and was very tough. Cutting out the rounds was very hard work with my pretty sharp S&W Swat knife. The knife wanted to bounce off as opposed to just sliding in. It says I can re-use in by putting it in the oven for 4-6 hours at 255-275 (in a mold)
 
I like the CD for my .380 (Kahr P380) compared to everything else I’ve seen tested and tested-Gold dots, Winchester’s, Barnes copper, Rem Gs, PMC Starfire, HST’s, the list goes on-nothing is as consistent and penetrates with decent expansion in bare gel or thru denim. Most of the other loads for .380 out there plug with the denim and over penetrate or go sideways and tumble off because one or two “petals” opened but the rest didn’t. Hornady CD doesn’t plug up or fail to expand-it does not expand 2x or anything but is consistent in expansion and penetration.
 
Originally Posted By: Driz
Critical defense is what I keep in my LCP. From the tests I’ve seen they look fine to me. It’s about all you’re gonna get from .380 anyways. Remember , as all cops are schooled you never shoot and wait to see how you did. Bull [censored]. Keep banging till the threat is no longer a threat. Far too many dead folks have shot some punk who in return killed them and limped away. Same goes for the big bore crowd. Don’t ever for a second think that your .45 or similar is going to bowl some guy over or you may well be in for a rude awakening. Equally true for a guy with a knife. Plug the puke and get some distance and keep him covered or you may find he will wade right through your next rounds and stab you dead. It’s happened way to many times so it’s worth mentioning as most people just don’t believe it. As always it’s not so much the caliber of that cannon but where you put those rounds even more so with a .380.
I use it too, however I think after what I've seen the sig looks a tiny bit better in expansion and and inch or two on penetration. https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/...798681458172.do
 
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Originally Posted By: clarkflower
Originally Posted By: billt460
While we're on the subject of ballistic gelatin, has anyone here worked with it? Is it a food type of product? Does it spoil, get smelly, or soft in warm temperatures? How is it stored, and what is it's shelf life? I have never physically seen it, touched it, or worked with it. But I have always wondered about it. I know the stuff isn't cheap, but it can be used over and over by "melting it down". Is there a limit on that, or does it have an indefinite rework life? Thanks in advance.
I bought it from this place and got it in 3 days. https://www.clearballistics.com/product-category/ballistic-gelatin/10-ballistic-gelatin/ It's nothing like Jello. It sat at room temp for 3 days and was very tough. Cutting out the rounds was very hard work with my pretty sharp S&W Swat knife. The knife wanted to bounce off as opposed to just sliding in. It says I can re-use in by putting it in the oven for 4-6 hours at 255-275 (in a mold)
Thanks!
 
I know Underwood uses CCI primers which are the hardest ones available in America and can cause some failures to go bang on some guns.
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I know Underwood uses CCI primers which are the hardest ones available in America and can cause some failures to go bang on some guns.
I had one Underwood with a hard strike, a dent in the primer and no bang. With the Lehigh some speculate the first click seats the round and the second pull fires it. Mine fired on the second pull.
 
Ive shot a lot of gel (and other things) I dont think you will find a better .380 than Gold Dot. That's my personnel, professional opinion. Your looking at 11 to 14 inches of penetration and decent expansion. But that is NOT the only story here. Speer uses premium components, premium low flash powders, premium primers, that the others only dream about. They also load these rounds hot, which is a good thing. That extra 70 feet per second over Hornady and others is good for reliability. A hot round is likely to cycle the action, especially if you have a weak grip on the gun (possible) Internet gel "experts" look at the gel performance of the rounds they are considering, and nothing else. They dont factor in the quality conrtol, reliability, or other factors. That's my short opinion, on a topic that I could write 25 pages on. For .32ACP (if that's the .32 you are talking about), Id find a hot, European FMJ, loaded in Europe to European standard. 32 JHP sucks. And for what its worth, after my testing was completed, I wouldn't run Critical Defense in anything. I flat out do not like the performance of that round and find it sub-par.
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Ive shot a lot of gel (and other things) I dont think you will find a better .380 than Gold Dot. That's my personnel, professional opinion. Your looking at 11 to 14 inches of penetration and decent expansion. But that is NOT the only story here. Speer uses premium components, premium low flash powders, premium primers, that the others only dream about. They also load these rounds hot, which is a good thing. That extra 70 feet per second over Hornady and others is good for reliability. A hot round is likely to cycle the action, especially if you have a weak grip on the gun (possible) Internet gel "experts" look at the gel performance of the rounds they are considering, and nothing else. They dont factor in the quality conrtol, reliability, or other factors.
Interesting. I try not to carry .380 but sometimes I must...I use Underwood +P 90 gr XTP's. Almost all my other carry loads are Underwood Gold Dots. Never tried Speer's .380 Gold Dot I will check them out. I agree with you about the internet gel testing, while interesting and often helpful it has taken on a life of it's own and has created it's own brand of nonsense. Paul Harrell is much more interesting and conducts tests that are closer to real world IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Ive shot a lot of gel (and other things) I dont think you will find a better .380 than Gold Dot. That's my personnel, professional opinion. Your looking at 11 to 14 inches of penetration and decent expansion. But that is NOT the only story here. Speer uses premium components, premium low flash powders, premium primers, that the others only dream about. They also load these rounds hot, which is a good thing. That extra 70 feet per second over Hornady and others is good for reliability. A hot round is likely to cycle the action, especially if you have a weak grip on the gun (possible) Internet gel "experts" look at the gel performance of the rounds they are considering, and nothing else. They dont factor in the quality conrtol, reliability, or other factors. That's my short opinion, on a topic that I could write 25 pages on. For .32ACP (if that's the .32 you are talking about), Id find a hot, European FMJ, loaded in Europe to European standard. 32 JHP sucks. And for what its worth, after my testing was completed, I wouldn't run Critical Defense in anything. I flat out do not like the performance of that round and find it sub-par.
With respect to the Critical Defense, are you talking about 380 specifically, or other calibers as well? What don't you like about it - velocity/expansion, or other factors?
 
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
With respect to the Critical Defense, are you talking about 380 specifically, or other calibers as well? What don't you like about it - velocity/expansion, or other factors?
I was less than impressed with the 9MM and .40 expansion/penetration. The .380 appears to be its saving grace, with decent performance.
 
Re the 380 Critical Defense. I got more penetration from a tumbling Buffalo Bore Barnes 32 about 14 inches into 10% gel 2 layers denim. Note the pink tip and the inverted Buffalo Bore Barnes with the bulk of the 380 about at inch short of the BB (The sig 380 did better)
 
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I've never been convinced of being able to judge a round's performance by shooting it into gelatin. A homogeneous block of gel just can't accurately mimic a body's varying density/consistency with its bones, connective tissues, voids, and different organs, etc..., IMO. Interesting data, for sure, but I don't think it's near the end-all picture of what a round is going to do that it is purported to be. I think animal carcasses (or, cadavers?) would be a much more accurate simulation..........although, obviously, much more expensive and less readily available.
 
Originally Posted By: 28oz
I've never been convinced of being able to judge a round's performance by shooting it into gelatin. A homogeneous block of gel just can't accurately mimic a body's varying density/consistency with its bones, connective tissues, voids, and different organs, etc..., IMO. Interesting data, for sure, but I don't think it's near the end-all picture of what a round is going to do that it is purported to be. I think animal carcasses (or, cadavers?) would be a much more accurate simulation..........although, obviously, much more expensive and less readily available.
I agree but was just reading gel penetration of 14 or so is suppose to take in all the variables. If it can get 14 in gel, it should hit the heart through a rib. In the end we NEVER know. Here is an attacker hit with 3 from a 40. The bullets hit in the arm (which passed through), in the chest (with no indication of it having done substantial damage to the body) and in the shoulder. The shoulder bullet traveled through the shoulder into the chest, where it did substantial damage before coming to rest in the abdomen. This bullet hit the spleen and kidney, but it also hit two major circulatory organs, the Inferior Vena Cava (the main vein leading back to the heart) and the Iliac Aorta. It is the autopsy doctor’s opinion that this bullet was the cause of death, due to “massive internal bleeding.” He ran away, got in a car and then drove away. If he had a gun he might have killed the guy. http://shootingthebull.net/blog/ I was in the army with a guy who took an AK round at the base of the nose/cheek just under the eye. It followed the outside of the cheek bone (maxilla?) and came out the neck under the ear. He didn't even get a headache. Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. My goal is just to get the best I can, with the easiest way to get it. I'm not going down to the cemetery with a shovel.;) For my 32 it seems to be 14 inches from a tumbling Buffalo Barnes. It would be this 32 Auto 50gr Xtreme Cavitator 15-16 tearing up the block https://www.lehighdefense.com/products/32-acp-50gr-xtreme-cavitator-ammunition?variant=13337135428 which did fabulous....except (in my weapon) about 2 out of 20 fail to go bang on the first click and they dodn't see a fix coming soon.
 
Originally Posted By: clarkflower
Originally Posted By: 28oz
I've never been convinced of being able to judge a round's performance by shooting it into gelatin. A homogeneous block of gel just can't accurately mimic a body's varying density/consistency with its bones, connective tissues, voids, and different organs, etc..., IMO. Interesting data, for sure, but I don't think it's near the end-all picture of what a round is going to do that it is purported to be. I think animal carcasses (or, cadavers?) would be a much more accurate simulation..........although, obviously, much more expensive and less readily available.
I agree but was just reading gel penetration of 14 or so is suppose to take in all the variables. If it can get 14 in gel, it should hit the heart through a rib. In the end we NEVER know. Here is an attacker hit with 3 from a 40. The bullets hit in the arm (which passed through), in the chest (with no indication of it having done substantial damage to the body) and in the shoulder. The shoulder bullet traveled through the shoulder into the chest, where it did substantial damage before coming to rest in the abdomen. This bullet hit the spleen and kidney, but it also hit two major circulatory organs, the Inferior Vena Cava (the main vein leading back to the heart) and the Iliac Aorta. It is the autopsy doctor’s opinion that this bullet was the cause of death, due to “massive internal bleeding.” He ran away, got in a car and then drove away. If he had a gun he might have killed the guy. http://shootingthebull.net/blog/ I was in the army with a guy who took an AK round at the base of the nose/cheek just under the eye. It followed the outside of the cheek bone (maxilla?) and came out the neck under the ear. He didn't even get a headache. Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. My goal is just to get the best I can, with the easiest way to get it. I'm not going down to the cemetery with a shovel.;) For my 32 it seems to be 14 inches from a tumbling Buffalo Barnes. It would be this 32 Auto 50gr Xtreme Cavitator 15-16 tearing up the block https://www.lehighdefense.com/products/32-acp-50gr-xtreme-cavitator-ammunition?variant=13337135428 which did fabulous....except (in my weapon) about 2 out of 20 fail to go bang on the first click and they dodn't see a fix coming soon.
+1 Absolutely. Bullets do weird things in bodies (and other obstacles) and you never quite know what they're going to do. Personally, I carry around two pieces of fragments/shrapnel in my head from a .303 British FMJ that hit an engine block over 100 yards away from me over 20 years ago. I still haven't a clue how something hit me and if it was a bullet/jacket fragment or a piece of the engine block.
 
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