ARX problem (not with the product)

[cha41ppy]

First post here so bear with me, I'm a lurker...

I was about 900 miles into my auto-rx cleaning phase last week when I let my little brother borrow my ES300 for the weekend while I was away. He decided to show a nice gesture by changing my oil for me, knowing nothing about my arx cleaner.

So my question is, now that I have fresh GTX and a new filter, should I go ahead and add an additional 6, maybe 10-12 ounces of ARX to the crankcase and run for 1600 miles? I had intended on doing two applications anyways, so maybe I should just go forward with the rinse phase at this point? It doesn't seem like anyone has encountered this situation, so I'm a little stuck here. Any opinions would be much appreciated.

FWIW, my car is a 99 lexus es300 with 96000 mi, recently purchased and somewhat poorly maintained before. I suspect mucho sludge.

 

[PW01]

Brothers, they CAN be thoughtful! Since you have 96,xxx on a 99 car, I would add a full bottle and run the remaining 1600 miles. I you go that route, nothing has really changed or been disrupted.

 

[INDYMAC]

I'm in the first clean phase for two of my vehicles now, so I don't consider myself a ARX veteran yet!
If it were me, I would avoid overfilling the crankcase and just call this an early rinse phase. Then you could start the next clean phase/rinse phase as prescribed. Tell your well intentioned brother to stay away for awhile too!

 

[Oilgal]

I am no expert, but I think most of the ARX you put in was already attached, to any sludge or carbon deposits as an liquefying emulsification agent. This is why you don't replace oil with ARX, but instead you add ARX to the regular amount of oil. It clings to parts and sludge and carbon deposits like crazy, because ARX is highly polarized esters. It doesn't sit in your sump adding to oil volume, and that is why you must avoid GRP V synthetic oil during the clean and rinse phase, because GRP V esters compete with ARX by displacing it.

A significant bit of oil is also left behind whenever you change your oil anyway. It remains behind, in the little bowl like receptacles called galleries, which hold oil as little reservoirs to feed parts, for example at your cam followers [rockers] etc.

So I think you may be fine, if you just put in half a bottle, and then finish the clean phase you began before the accidental oil change.

Frank, or one of the other ARX team members, will have to confirm this of course. I may be wrong, and it sure wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Pablo]

The best option for the most cleaning will be to just start over again. Any Arx "remaining" should have gone into solution with the new oil. But this amount will be quite small, so just add the normal amount (this certainly won't overfill the crankcase) and carry on. Perhaps you could go a little shorter on this cleaning phase, but for sure not on the most important rinse phase. You want to get all the lanolin and esters out of there.

 

[Oilgal]

I think ARX will remain in colloidal suspension, with petroleum [dino] oil, but it will not dissolve into a solution. It wouldn't hurt to add an entire new bottle though, and it may be the best thing just to make thorough cleaning a certainty.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Oilgal
I think ARX will remain in colloidal suspension, with petroleum [dino] oil, but it will not dissolve into a solution. It wouldn't hurt to add an entire new bottle though, and it may be the best thing just to make thorough cleaning a certainty.


I agree. Maybe I was unclear....ARx in a very small quantity is soluble in the oil, (and therefore won't do the same cleaning job). It's more than sparingly soluble, so any remaining should do no harm if he adds a full treatment as you state, that's all.

 

[virginoil]

ARX is not that cheap. Some use good quality HDEO mineral oils (Delo or Delvac) to help clean the internals. ARX has good reputation, but you can adjust and tailor its use to suit your needs as required (within the guidelines on the ARX site).

For example instead of adding a full bottle of ARX, why not just add the maintenance 3oz/4oz dose and use old 3000 mile OCI's routine or 3-4 months.

Most new oils (Mineral SM rated) have pretty good cleaners anyway from what I have read. This will take longer, but will clean out the krapp in the engine with regular OCI's.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
I think ARX will remain in colloidal suspension, with petroleum [dino] oil, but it will not dissolve into a solution. It wouldn't hurt to add an entire new bottle though, and it may be the best thing just to make thorough cleaning a certainty.


I agree. Maybe I was unclear....ARx in a very small quantity is soluble in the oil, (and therefore won't do the same cleaning job). It's more than sparingly soluble, so any remaining should do no harm if he adds a full treatment as you state, that's all.


I agree it sure couldn't hurt to just re-dose fully and proceed. Maybe you can help me understand this all better. You have been here far longer than I, and though we have disagreed before I certainly respect your mind.

I think I am seeing ARX esters form an emulsion, when upon reaching saturation point in weak bonding through infusion with targeted unwanted compounds, resulting polarization loss causes it to suspend in oil, and the resultant reaches the filter membrane, which allows only the esters to pass through and back into the sump. I don't know how long this process continues, i.e. how many times and for how long, ARX separates from the compounds it carries to the filter. I suspect this is an efficient process though, and the interruption of this cycle by draining and replacing oil, is determined mainly or perhaps even solely, by the oil reaching the end of it's useful life as a lubricant. I think there is far more to ARX than is presently understood, and it just may have many more potential applications than presently imagined.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Oilgal
I think I am seeing ARX esters form an emulsion, when upon reaching saturation point in weak bonding through infusion with targeted unwanted compounds, resulting polarization loss causes it to suspend in oil, and the resultant reaches the filter membrane, which allows only the esters to pass through and back into the sump. I don't know how long this process continues, i.e. how many times and for how long, ARX separates from the compounds it carries to the filter. I suspect this is an efficient process though, and the interruption of this cycle by draining and replacing oil, is determined mainly or perhaps even solely, by the oil reaching the end of it's useful life as a lubricant. I think there is far more to ARX than is presently understood, and it just may have many more potential applications than presently imagined.


I think you are more than basically correct, and this is the main reason somebody "bigger" hasn't bought out AutoRx and just thrown it into their oil. It simply won't stay tied into an oil on the shelf (in high enough concentration to do the job). The other more complex part is the weak bonding with metal surfaces and the unknown/lanolin carriers.

 

[Oilgal]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Oilgal
I think I am seeing ARX esters form an emulsion, when upon reaching saturation point in weak bonding through infusion with targeted unwanted compounds, resulting polarization loss causes it to suspend in oil, and the resultant reaches the filter membrane, which allows only the esters to pass through and back into the sump. I don't know how long this process continues, i.e. how many times and for how long, ARX separates from the compounds it carries to the filter. I suspect this is an efficient process though, and the interruption of this cycle by draining and replacing oil, is determined mainly or perhaps even solely, by the oil reaching the end of it's useful life as a lubricant. I think there is far more to ARX than is presently understood, and it just may have many more potential applications than presently imagined.


I think you are more than basically correct, and this is the main reason somebody "bigger" hasn't bought out AutoRx and just thrown it into their oil. It simply won't stay tied into an oil on the shelf (in high enough concentration to do the job).


Interesting. I can't see how that would really be a problem though. I think the real reason is that it may make oil just a bit too resilient'. Though such an idea may offend one's sensibilities, there is ample evidence of technology being withheld because of the bottom line effect, and big oil is not above such certainly.

 

[BarkerMan]

I would like add my 2 cents worth. I have been testing Auto-Rx and have had discussions with formulators about packaging Auto-Rx with an engine oil. The dose is 2 oz per quart and the tests prove that Auto-Rx is most effective at that does and it does cling to metal as it cleans it even after an oil change. The only objection I've heard is that a quart of oil is a commodity and 2 ounces of Auto-Rx is too expensive. The question has come up about making Auto-Rx work at ½ ounce per quart and that's not possible. Auto-Rx binds with crud and gets used up as it works. If in the case that started this thread I'd say that a large portion of Auto-Rx stayed behind when the oil was changed. The Auto-Rx that had bound up with curd of course got drained away but because you do not know how dirty the engine is it would be safe to add another full dose of Auto-Rx. I have experience with 2 bottle doses with a 1k clean cycle and it appears that it works well. Part of the reason it works is because Auto-Rx will remain attached to the metal when the 1k oil change comes along. Also the crud that has been attacked but not yet fallen away will still come off later in what is known as the rinse cycle. Auto-Rx is so effective at staying behind that you will get the cleaning effect for 10 to 25k miles after a complete clean and rinse. This is why an aggressive rinse works, that is repeated 1k rinse cycles for a really cruddy engine. The Auto-Rx that is still active is bound to the metal and does not get rinsed away. Just the crud and the Auto-Rx that is bound to the crud. The last such test with 3 1k rinse cycles got crud out every time and much more crud that could be attributed to just the engine oil. If Auto-Rx was not sticking to the metal these 1k rinse cycles would not have worked like the did. That's why the 2 bottle 1k clean with multiple short rinse cycles is working. The Auto-Rx is still there.

 

[cha41ppy]

Wow you guys are awesome.

I believe I'm going to add 6-8 oz of ARX just to be safe, run it 1500 miles, then begin the rinse phase.

Thanks a bunch, I think I'll stick around here

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I think you are more than basically correct, and this is the main reason somebody "bigger" hasn't bought out AutoRx and just thrown it into their oil. It simply won't stay tied into an oil on the shelf (in high enough concentration to do the job).


I've had more than a few conversations with Frank during and after my two bottle experiment. In one he informed me of the examination of ARX by Lubrizol. Apparently Terry Dyson and some associate of Frank's took part in some representative status for Frank in observing the testing. Apparently Lubrizol had a major blender interested in using ARX @ 1/2 oz/quart for friction modification. They didn't appear interested in using enough for the cleaning effects.

They allegedly like it since it required no new "rebalancing" of the current formulations.

This isn't any "secret" ..but probably isn't common knowledge either

 

[Mudcat]

I’ll offer a suggestion counter to the current zeitgeist. I would not add any more ARX at this time. Treat this run as an unintended rinse cycle. After that I would perform another treat and rinse.

It is my understanding that the original ARX cleaning cycle was for 750 miles. You have exceeded that. It is also my understanding that the bulk of the cleaning from ARX ironically does not occur in the “cleaning” cycle, but in the rinse portion. Therefore, in order to derive maximum benefit from the ARX you have already used, skip adding more ARX now and keep rinsing (IMHO).

 

[Frank]

The original cleaning ratio was 500 miles than tests showed 750 miles gave a better job of cleaning than we went to 1500 miles cleaning and finally 2500 miles.Posting that the bulk of cleaning comes in the rinse cycle is wrong. Removing all we have cleaned (in the cleaning phase)comes in the rinse cycle.

 

[Rick20]

The host oil or rinsing oil for that matter seem to control the flow of contaminants out of the oiling system. In many cases alot of material is found in filters during the cleaning phase. But this is somewhat regulated by the amount ability of the host oils plus ARX's effect on how much can be carried away to the filter or the amount of soil loading the brew can hold. It is quite evide4nt that a rinse phase will allow for more soil loading of deposits empregnated during the cleaning phase. This is a great and unique feature of ARX. Its not like letting a bull loose in a china closet. Safely cleaq is unique to ARX.