Had a thought. Have the folks from Stuttgart, Bavaria and Ingolstadt (Porsche BMW and Audi) as well as Mercedes and VW begun using thinner oil, or if they all still have a habit of calling for 40, 50, and ultimately 60-weight oils. ? Have the new cars and engines from there gone lean on engine protection requirements or no?
Are Zi Germans using thinner oil or no, not really
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Probably not but then we don't drive around at 140 mph. My boss in Germany routinely went on the Autobahn and ran at 220-240 kph! I took a taxi in Dusseldorf to the airport in a brand new Mercedes cab and the driver hit 170 kph on the Autobahn. When we brought Germans to the US for a 5-7 year stint, they were apalled at first by our "low" speed limits but after 3-4 years with a new American car, they were amazed that it still ran well.
So I thinlk driving habits have a lot to do with the oil. I think if we could tool around at those speeds, we would not be using 5W-20 oil either.
So I thinlk driving habits have a lot to do with the oil. I think if we could tool around at those speeds, we would not be using 5W-20 oil either.
I can not speak about Stuttgart but Mercedes USA has 0W/5W30's in 2013 owners manuals. But ultimately recommends it meets 229.5 specs.
Hmm.
So MBUSA seems to be putting 0w30 in cars. I can only imagine BMW. I can see where speed may have something to do with oil weight, for prolonged periods. Old German cars are the prime suspect in wht people say need a 40 or better oil, as the first thing most people do then they buy a used car is change the oil in my opinion. Now its 2012..
So MBUSA seems to be putting 0w30 in cars. I can only imagine BMW. I can see where speed may have something to do with oil weight, for prolonged periods. Old German cars are the prime suspect in wht people say need a 40 or better oil, as the first thing most people do then they buy a used car is change the oil in my opinion. Now its 2012..
Hi,
the short answer is yes. This process started several years ago and is continuing. It takes considerable time from design concept to actual use via consumers
New Manufacturer's lubricant standards and testing protocols are being developed accordingly
Some Manufacturers use third party test "facilities" and I can speak with some authority that the Nurburgring's Nordschleife in the Eifel Mtns is a great punisher of products!
the short answer is yes. This process started several years ago and is continuing. It takes considerable time from design concept to actual use via consumers
New Manufacturer's lubricant standards and testing protocols are being developed accordingly
Some Manufacturers use third party test "facilities" and I can speak with some authority that the Nurburgring's Nordschleife in the Eifel Mtns is a great punisher of products!
No, CAFE is somehow threatening Germany, and they're being forced to increase fuel economy, and cars are regularily exploding in Germany because of thinner oil, all to make American lawmakers happy...
..kidding. But yes, they are going thinner. The main thing still is of course, high performance cars and tearing down the Autobahns at high speeds, since better oils allow thinner oils to keep cars happy under these conditions.
..kidding. But yes, they are going thinner. The main thing still is of course, high performance cars and tearing down the Autobahns at high speeds, since better oils allow thinner oils to keep cars happy under these conditions.
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You can read all the manuals you like in Deutsch or English here:
http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/germ...ive_manual.html
I pulled the first one from the shelf:
A-class
A 180 BlueEFFICIENCY
Quote:
MB Approval 229.3, 229.5, 229.51
If the engine oils listed in the table are not available, you may add the following engine oils until the next oil change:
vehicles with a petrol engine: MB Approval 229.1 or ACEA A3
diesel engines; MB Approval 229.1, 229.3, 229.5 or ACEA C3
This may only be topped up once, and the quantity must not be greater than 1.0 l .
A3 is not thin in my book.
I looked up 229.1 here: http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/229.1_de.html and they are mostly 10W40 or 15W40 with few exceptions.
Feel free to check the others.
http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/germ...ive_manual.html
I pulled the first one from the shelf:
A-class
A 180 BlueEFFICIENCY
Quote:
MB Approval 229.3, 229.5, 229.51
If the engine oils listed in the table are not available, you may add the following engine oils until the next oil change:
vehicles with a petrol engine: MB Approval 229.1 or ACEA A3
diesel engines; MB Approval 229.1, 229.3, 229.5 or ACEA C3
This may only be topped up once, and the quantity must not be greater than 1.0 l .
A3 is not thin in my book.
I looked up 229.1 here: http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/229.1_de.html and they are mostly 10W40 or 15W40 with few exceptions.
Feel free to check the others.
Originally Posted By: GearheadTool
Had a thought. Have the folks from Stuttgart, Bavaria and Ingolstadt (Porsche BMW and Audi) as well as Mercedes and VW begun using thinner oil, or if they all still have a habit of calling for 40, 50, and ultimately 60-weight oils. ? Have the new cars and engines from there gone lean on engine protection requirements or no?
It's not as much about a particular grade as it is about HT/HS. The base underlying spec for them is ACEA A3/C3, which means HT/HS of at least 3.5 cP. Some thick Xw-30 as well as Xw-40 oils can meet it.
However, some of the Euro mfgs also approve specific FE oils that can have HT/HS of less than 3.5 cP. But these oil are few and far between in Europe and non-existent in the US.
Had a thought. Have the folks from Stuttgart, Bavaria and Ingolstadt (Porsche BMW and Audi) as well as Mercedes and VW begun using thinner oil, or if they all still have a habit of calling for 40, 50, and ultimately 60-weight oils. ? Have the new cars and engines from there gone lean on engine protection requirements or no?
It's not as much about a particular grade as it is about HT/HS. The base underlying spec for them is ACEA A3/C3, which means HT/HS of at least 3.5 cP. Some thick Xw-30 as well as Xw-40 oils can meet it.
However, some of the Euro mfgs also approve specific FE oils that can have HT/HS of less than 3.5 cP. But these oil are few and far between in Europe and non-existent in the US.
The German manufacturers are calling for HTHS > 3.5, which is some 0w30s/5w30s, but mostly 0w40s and 5w40s. I think there's one or two 5w50s on the approval lists.
They do well with CAFE because they offer diesels which are getting 40mpg+, evening it out with their gas guzzling uber-sedans.
I'm of the opinion that no, the Germans are not moving to thinner oils. Even the 2013 Audis and VWs are still using the 502/505 spec, which requires HTHS > 3.5.
They do well with CAFE because they offer diesels which are getting 40mpg+, evening it out with their gas guzzling uber-sedans.
I'm of the opinion that no, the Germans are not moving to thinner oils. Even the 2013 Audis and VWs are still using the 502/505 spec, which requires HTHS > 3.5.
Originally Posted By: GearheadTool
Had a thought. Have the folks from Stuttgart, Bavaria and Ingolstadt (Porsche BMW and Audi) as well as Mercedes and VW begun using thinner oil, or if they all still have a habit of calling for 40, 50, and ultimately 60-weight oils. ? Have the new cars and engines from there gone lean on engine protection requirements or no?
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
Had a thought. Have the folks from Stuttgart, Bavaria and Ingolstadt (Porsche BMW and Audi) as well as Mercedes and VW begun using thinner oil, or if they all still have a habit of calling for 40, 50, and ultimately 60-weight oils. ? Have the new cars and engines from there gone lean on engine protection requirements or no?
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
How exactly A3 is thin with its HTHS > 3.5?
BTW, fuel efficiency at working temp is tied to HTHS.
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
How exactly A3 is thin with its HTHS > 3.5?
BTW, fuel efficiency at working temp is tied to HTHS.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
How exactly A3 is thin with its HTHS > 3.5?
BTW, fuel efficiency at working temp is tied to HTHS.
Thin compared to the 40/50/60 weights Gearheadtool was talking
about. Those weights will have a higher HTHS viscosity.
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
How exactly A3 is thin with its HTHS > 3.5?
BTW, fuel efficiency at working temp is tied to HTHS.
Thin compared to the 40/50/60 weights Gearheadtool was talking
about. Those weights will have a higher HTHS viscosity.
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
How exactly A3 is thin with its HTHS > 3.5?
BTW, fuel efficiency at working temp is tied to HTHS.
Thin compared to the 40/50/60 weights Gearheadtool was talking
about. Those weights will have a higher HTHS viscosity.
Lets define some terms here for some who are not well versed here. Thin on bitog is in the range 2.6-2.9 HTHS.
Most of the XW40 weights that Gearheadtool mentioned have HTHS at the 3.5 range, so they are not "thicker" compared to what I'm talking about.
SAE grade and viscosity at 100C is only part of the story and it's least important here.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
How exactly A3 is thin with its HTHS > 3.5?
BTW, fuel efficiency at working temp is tied to HTHS.
Thin compared to the 40/50/60 weights Gearheadtool was talking
about. Those weights will have a higher HTHS viscosity.
Lets define some terms here for some who are not well versed here. Thin on bitog is in the range 2.6-2.9 HTHS.
Most of the XW40 weights that Gearheadtool mentioned have HTHS at the 3.5 range, so they are not "thicker" compared to what I'm talking about.
SAE grade and viscosity at 100C is only part of the story and it's least important here.
Originally Posted By: bar1
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
Audi/VW as well. VW 504.00/507.00 spec. was introduced in 2004.
504/507 is still HTHS > 3.5, so they aren't thinner.
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
BMW has been using thinner oil's (A3 5w30/0w30) since around
1999/2000.
Audi/VW as well. VW 504.00/507.00 spec. was introduced in 2004.
504/507 is still HTHS > 3.5, so they aren't thinner.
Well then. If Gearheadtool had 20/30 weight oil's with
low HTHS viscosities in mind then no, I don't think German
car makers will change.
low HTHS viscosities in mind then no, I don't think German
car makers will change.
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Probably not but then we don't drive around at 140 mph. My boss in Germany routinely went on the Autobahn and ran at 220-240 kph! I took a taxi in Dusseldorf to the airport in a brand new Mercedes cab and the driver hit 170 kph on the Autobahn. When we brought Germans to the US for a 5-7 year stint, they were apalled at first by our "low" speed limits but after 3-4 years with a new American car, they were amazed that it still ran well.
So I thinlk driving habits have a lot to do with the oil. I think if we could tool around at those speeds, we would not be using 5W-20 oil either.
Why would they be 'amazed' at 3-4 year longevity , esp with easier operating conditions?
Probably not but then we don't drive around at 140 mph. My boss in Germany routinely went on the Autobahn and ran at 220-240 kph! I took a taxi in Dusseldorf to the airport in a brand new Mercedes cab and the driver hit 170 kph on the Autobahn. When we brought Germans to the US for a 5-7 year stint, they were apalled at first by our "low" speed limits but after 3-4 years with a new American car, they were amazed that it still ran well.
So I thinlk driving habits have a lot to do with the oil. I think if we could tool around at those speeds, we would not be using 5W-20 oil either.
Why would they be 'amazed' at 3-4 year longevity , esp with easier operating conditions?
Originally Posted By: bar1
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
...Thin on bitog is in the range 2.6-2.9 HTHS.
...
That's a thin definition of thin...
Sure why not.
BTW the BMW LL-01 FE 0w30 has a HTHSV of 3.0cP which is spec'd for a lot of models now and that is getting close to "thin".
I recall Doug Hillary (who's on top of this sort of thing) mentioning once that BMW was testing some 0W-20 oils at some endurance races at the Nurburgring, so I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
...Thin on bitog is in the range 2.6-2.9 HTHS.
...
That's a thin definition of thin...
Sure why not.
BTW the BMW LL-01 FE 0w30 has a HTHSV of 3.0cP which is spec'd for a lot of models now and that is getting close to "thin".
I recall Doug Hillary (who's on top of this sort of thing) mentioning once that BMW was testing some 0W-20 oils at some endurance races at the Nurburgring, so I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
A lot of the German cars are attaching the Fuel Economy standards by throwing gears in the transmission. MB uses 7 gears and claims 6-7% better FE because of it. MBis workingon a 9 speed transmission, while Audi and BMW are bringing 8 gears to market.
Many of them have downsized the displacements, lowered the RPM levels and thrown turbos and supers at the problem to get higher HP, higher TQ and more MPG.
Many of them have downsized the displacements, lowered the RPM levels and thrown turbos and supers at the problem to get higher HP, higher TQ and more MPG.
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