Are winter tires "worth it"?

[JHZR2]

I have just been using good all weather and all season tires (CC2's, PSAS4's, etc) in the past. They have worked amazingly well. I have been able to climb my 27% incline drive covered in snow, and even navigated rural mountainous roads during ice storms. That said, I have had vehicles with amazing AWD systems, my EV6 GT, my Acura RDX, etc. This is the first winter I will be driving a FWD vehicle. I have Firestone all weather tires on it now, but am contemplating Blizzack WS90's for the winter. Everyone always says "AWD with an all weather < Snow tires" but I dunno how you compete with an AWD system like my GT has when you put CC2's on it or something. Am I going to make it up my 27% incline in this FWD car with WS90's like my GT does on CC2's? Or is this going to be a case of "I knew better and wasted money being an idiot buying snow tires for a FWD"?

*FWD vehicle is my Mother's. It is a 2005 Buick LeSabre Limited, and appears to have some sort of locking diff up front, it spins both tires on gravel, etc.

I’m not sure I’ve heard that awd with all seasons is better than snows. In fact? I’m pretty sure I’ve heard the opposite.

A good awd system can do a lot. And with reasonable tires can surely get most people along well. It also is of no service on ice, and particularly when you need to control the vehicle or stop on ice.

That said, snow tires without studs can necessarily wither. My driveway has a very steep short section, and with snows, in the rain then initially drive on a bit of snow (packing it and hardening it) then more on top, I couldn’t get up last week. I had to get out and shovel. I was fairly surprised at that.

They’re all tools and no panacea.

 

[TiGeo]

I’m not sure I’ve heard that awd with all seasons is better than snows. In fact? I’m pretty sure I’ve heard the opposite.

A good awd system can do a lot. And with reasonable tires can surely get most people along well. It also is of no service on ice, and particularly when you need to control the vehicle or stop on ice.

That said, snow tires without studs can necessarily wither. My driveway has a very steep short section, and with snows, in the rain then initially drive on a bit of snow (packing it and hardening it) then more on top, I couldn’t get up last week. I had to get out and shovel. I was fairly surprised at that.

They’re all tools and no panacea.

Winter tires are for safe braking on snow/ice - that's the gist of it to me. AWD with snows would be the ideal winter car if you actually live where this stuff matters. A fwd car wtih snows should trump an awd car on basic all seasons, maybe the three-peak/whatever new all seasons that handle snow better would be a wash awd with those compared to fwd with real winter tires.

 

[edyvw]

Winter tires are for safe braking on snow/ice - that's the gist of it to me. AWD with snows would be the ideal winter car if you actually live where this stuff matters. A fwd car wtih snows should trump an awd car on basic all seasons, maybe the three-peak/whatever new all seasons that handle snow better would be a wash awd with those compared to fwd with real winter tires.

FWD on snows, moving forward, can do a lot, but on serious uphill, especially in a vehicle like Buick LaSabre, that doesn’t have anything resembling dynamic, needs some momentum. AWD with good all seasons will climb simply bcs. rear axle will provide at least some push. Tires are limitation though. I climbed Hoosier Pass during blizzard with VW CC on Blizzak LM60 after second attempt bcs. Land Cruiser blocked the lane in the middle of curve bcs. tires. I had to reverse to get some momentum.
But, the name of the game is stopping. And it seems some people really have hard time understanding that.

 

[Ranger83]

Winter tires are for safe braking on snow/ice - that's the gist of it to me. AWD with snows would be the ideal winter car if you actually live where this stuff matters. A fwd car wtih snows should trump an awd car on basic all seasons, maybe the three-peak/whatever new all seasons that handle snow better would be a wash awd with those compared to fwd with real winter tires.

There is only one test to get the 3PMS rating: straight line acceleration on snow in moderate temps.

All the manufacturers have figured out how to pass this test with a new tire, especially light truck tires that have up to 15/32nd initial tread depth.

The CrossClimate 2 is one such tire. In the test quoted previously, their ice performance is last place, along with snow braking and snow handling. TANSTAAFL.

 

[CapriRacer]

There is only one test to get the 3PMS rating: straight line acceleration on snow in moderate temps.

Ah ..... Mmmmmm ....... Not exactly

Long version: Barry's Tire Tech: Winter and All Weather Tires

Short version: There are 2 tests - an acceleration test developed in the US and a braking test developed in Europe.

In Europe, passing either test gets you the rating, but in the US and Canada, you have to pass the American version and apparently it is ever so slightly more difficult.

Now the reason the American version is an acceleration test: The tire doesn't care if you are accelerating or braking. All it knows is that torque is being applied. This is not a problem for dry or wet traction. But if the test is a snow braking test, the snow piles up in front of the tire and you're not testing the pure snow traction. You are testing the traction plus the effect the piled up snow has. That's why the American version is an acceleration test. It's only testing snow traction.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

Everyone sees these the first couple snows. Very slushy yesterday, the just under 6/32" WinterContact Si's on Pilot were definitely noticeable in the slush changing lanes with a bit of slip. Multiple vehicles off the road also on my 1 hour drive. Leave room, stay away from others, common sense slow down some.

 

[edyvw]

Idk what closure of the same section this is since Friday morning.
My kids had the day off on Friday. I wanted to go skiing with them, but I decided not to as my 5-year-old is still not up to blizzard-condition skiing.
Later, I figured it was probably a good call, although I would go back road, but they also shut down Hoosier Pass between Fairplay (South Park) and Breckenridge for some time.
But here is an interesting fact. Hoosier Pass is two-lane road with horrid switchbacks when going down toward Breckenridge. And it is rarely closed. Why? People have tires! It is as simple as that. No one drives there without good tires (well, there are some fools). But I70? It is an absolute horror show. Mostly bcs. truckers don't chain up or people don't have at least 3PMSF tires on their cars. Although, this weekend storm (still going on full strength) is probably a "strictly snow tire situation."

 

[edyvw]

When you have snow tires, you get to see places like this in person, not on a brochure:

 

[Astro14]

Well, I tried to make it up my driveway. No dice. I will get a heckuva running start and then try it and think I will succeed, but my AWD cars on all-seasons just walked up it no issue. I will have to give credit though, it did far better than I thought. I made it 1/2 way up.

All wheel drive is great for getting up a hill. It does very little for winter safety.

Very few crashes occur because someone cannot make it up a hill.

The preponderance of crashes are because somebody can’t stop, or somebody can’t turn. Stopping and turning are a function of tire traction, not all-wheel-drive.

In fact, the overconfidence of drivers with all-wheel-drive is often responsible for them losing control because they cannot stop or turn. I’ve told the story of many times of seeing three wrecked Subaru, three different Subarus, wrecked on my icy road in Vermont, as I went around them in my Rear Wheel Drive Volvo with four proper winter tires. Those three Subaru’s had two things in common, out of state plates, and all season tires.

Look at the couple of posts with pictures above mine. All of the wrecked cars had all wheel drive. That all wheel drive did nothing to help their stability under slippery conditions.

It did not help them stop. It did not help them turn.

It did not prevent their crash.

 

[Sequoiasoon]

@Astro14,
Were you down in VA the last couple days? Since I searched many things around there recently, I now get news prompts/feeds and the one said almost a foot of snow in VA Beach?

Knowing when I lived in Raleigh and peoples experience and rare winter tire use, the place would shut down never mind the accidents and stuck cars from those who tried to venture out. Being from NY and already having 4 winter tires they went on anyway. I knew I would travel to NY for family frequently so planned accordingly. Never had issue while there.

My son was down the week before from Suffolk VA to west of Ashville NC and back. It was colder but he said only rained then.

 

[TiGeo]

@Astro14,
Were you down in VA the last couple days? Since I searched many things around there recently, I now get news prompts/feeds and the one said almost a foot of snow in VA Beach?

Knowing when I lived in Raleigh and peoples experience and rare winter tire use, the place would shut down never mind the accidents and stuck cars from those who tried to venture out. Being from NY and already having 4 winter tires they went on anyway. I knew I would travel to NY for family frequently so planned accordingly. Never had issue while there.

My son was down the week before from Suffolk VA to west of Ashville NC and back. It was colder but he said only rained then.

My parent's house in Virginia Beach last week. Grew up there...rare but can and does happen.

 

[FCD]

In places like Norway, Sweden or Finland it is illegal to drive on summer tires in winter from x date until y date.
I am Finnish and recently saw a Finnish registered BMW 5 Series on Studded tyres here in Spain lol

 

[Kalle.J]

In places like Norway, Sweden or Finland it is illegal to drive on summer tires in winter from x date until y date.
I am Finnish and recently saw a Finnish registered BMW 5 Series on Studded tyres here in Spain lol

Only on actual snow (winter conditions). If the asphalt is dry driving with summers is not illegal.

 

[TiGeo]

Only on actual snow (winter conditions). If the asphalt is dry driving with summers is not illegal.

And "summer" tire there would include what in the U.S. is called "all season".

 

[Kalle.J]

And "summer" tire there would include what in the U.S. is called "all season".

Would say many use what you would call UHP summers.
Plenty of Michelin Pilot 4, Hankook S1 Evo and Conti Premium contact etc visible at the parking lot at work.

VW ID4 comes with S1 Evo as from factory.

 

[TiGeo]

Would say many use what you would call UHP summers.
Plenty of Michelin Pilot 4, Hankook S1 Evo and Conti Premium contact etc visible at the parking lot at work.

Yes but say PSAS4...not available there. This tire would also there be considered a "summer".

 

[Kalle.J]

Yes but say PSAS4...not available there. This tire would also there be considered a "summer".

Maybe, thread does not look like any summers I see around here though.

 

[shortyb]

Gotta remember the friction circle when choosing/using tires, they are your only connection to the road. Wanna turn? can't be using much acceleration or braking friction. Wanna brake? shouldn't be turning too much and eating up available friction. Tires not giving a lot of friction, or weather is causing less friction? Well, something has to give. You can bend the laws of physics, but not break them. All basic stuff.

When I lived in NoVA. we would get some some pretty substantial snows. Had a single cab, rear wheel drive Tacoma 5 spd that was the absolute best snow machine around. November it got some tall, skinny Hakkapalitias and about 300lbs. of bagged sand in the bed. Would go anywhere. April it got the wide Nittos back and lost the sand. It would take turns and stick like nobody's business. Always a fan of dressing for the weather and that included a dedicated tire "wardrobe". Friction. It's a good thing .

 

[TiGeo]

Maybe, thread does not look like any summers I see around here though.

Correct because the UHP all season type tire is not sold in that part of the world. If was it would be considered a "summer" is the point I'm trying to make.

 

[TiGeo]

Gotta remember the friction circle when choosing/using tires, they are your only connection to the road. Wanna turn? can't be using much acceleration or braking friction. Wanna brake? shouldn't be turning too much and eating up available friction. Tires not giving a lot of friction, or weather is causing less friction? Well, something has to give. You can bend the laws of physics, but not break them. All basic stuff.

When I lived in NoVA. we would get some some pretty substantial snows. Had a single cab, rear wheel drive Tacoma 5 spd that was the absolute best snow machine around. November it got some tall, skinny Hakkapalitias and about 300lbs. of bagged sand in the bed. Would go anywhere. April it got the wide Nittos back and lost the sand. It would take turns and stick like nobody's business. Always a fan of dressing for the weather and that included a dedicated tire "wardrobe". Friction. It's a good thing .

When was that? I lived there 2000-2005. Had some snow but never frequently enough to bother with a dedicated set of wheels/tires up there.