Apple under fire

[Mystic]

Well, with the IRS is big trouble maybe there is a chance that we can actually get some tax reform in this country. A flat tax might well be a great idea. I would love to see the IRS shut down and replaced with something better.

But I also would not mind seeing Apple pay its fair share of taxes.

 

[EType]

Mystic

What would be a fair % of tax to pay in the US on US profits?

If you think transferring cash from profit in the US to Ireland is how you dodge taxes you are mistaken. Any money earned in the US is taxed in the US.

The Ireland connection has to do with establishing a substantial presence in Ireland (ie jobs) and invoicing out of there. There is sometimes a transfer of IP but that usually happens with software not hardware. That is why google is getting in trouble in the UK right now.

Apple don't invoice US hardware sales out of Ireland, but they may use Ireland to invoice in the EU. So they may be enjoying lower tax on profits outside of the US but it is foreign governments who are losing out.

The level of understanding of these issues by our lawmakers, the media and public is unfortunately low and a lot of judgement without facts takes place.

On the other side, even though the one senator I happened to agree with the most was Rand Paul, he was mistaken about chasing companies like Apple out of the country. High Tech companies in Silicon Valley know that most innovation comes in Silicon Valley. It is a special place for that. The CA taxes and regulations don't matter when it comes to the creativity and execution that happens in the Valley. The outsourcing of jobs that the Valley does is not in the areas that generate the highest value. People who live in the Valley know that they are doing some of the most exciting things in the world and live in one of the best places in the world.

 

[Kruse]

Apple was probably just following the tax code. If our government doesn't like it, they should change the tax code.
At least Apple isn't two-faced like Warren Buffett. He complains long as hard that the rich aren't paying enough taxes, but yet he has hundreds of accountants hired whose sole purpose is to make sure that he doesn't have to pay any more taxes than he has to.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Apple was probably just following the tax code. If our government doesn't like it, they should change the tax code.
At least Apple isn't two-faced like Warren Buffett. He complains long as hard that the rich aren't paying enough taxes, but yet he has hundreds of accountants hired whose sole purpose is to make sure that he doesn't have to pay any more taxes than he has to.
He's fighting over a billion dollars worth of taxes right now.

 

[Barkleymut]

Oh please please do not get me started on w. Buffett.

 

[EType]

Buffett is one of my heros.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do. The less tax a corporation has to pay, the cheaper their products will be.

Taxing corporations is just laundering money from the population in a way that they can't easily see.


Not true, both the share holder and the customers pay taxes.

Your logic is like saying workers don't pay taxes, the customers do, or share holder don't pay taxes, the workers do, etc etc.

If you look at the demand and supply curve intersection, and have taken any economic course, you'd know that any increase in cost or reduction in price would be felt by both the producer and the consumer.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
Almost immediately after Jobs was ousted from Apple, he started Pixar. And the day he returned, Apple was about 3 months away from not meeting payroll. And that's just footnotes to a great career by any standards. For perspective, just think what could have been if Jobs took over Microsoft rather than Balmer.


First off, whether Steve Job is great or not has nothing to do with whether Apple should or should not pay taxes, then or now.

Second, Steve would have drove MS into the ground had he took over MS instead of Balmer. He did that when he introduced the extremely expensive Lisa instead of Macintosh and that show he is a guy that is only good for high end market products that is never going to be more than 20% market share in the long run. He would have killed MS and reduce it to a small company, encourage everyone else to jump into the market for replacement (which may be a good thing in the long run for consumer).

Third, Steve is a credit stealing a-hole that knows really well how to market something and claim credit for other people's hard work, and did so well in it that people didn't remember the horrible things he did that got him fired by Apple's board earlier (which he admit later that it is a good thing that made him a better leaders later on).

Forth, he is just like his dad, who abandoned the woman he impregnated and refuse to pay child support by fight the case and claiming to not be able to impregnate someone. This may be his personal business, but I'd say that tells you something about how he deal with his partners and people who trusted him.

 

[Mystic]

I agree with a lot of what PandaBear says here. He brought up a few of the reasons why I did not care much for Steve Jobs after I had found out more about him.

Steve Jobs did have a kind of genius when it came to the exterior appearance of products. And he was really a good salesman. He could get people to buy stuff. But he really was good only for high end expensive products and he probably would have been a poor CEO for Microsoft. And sometimes his quality exterior design did not make a lot of sense in other ways-like not being able to replace a battery. Seriously under the beautiful exterior design is a computer-or smart phone-or tablet-or whatever. Apple Computers did tend to have quality parts and they should have had quality parts for the money being spend. But you can get quality parts from NextEgg or Tiger Direct also.

And everybody looks at the smart moves Jobs made and not some of his mistakes.

What really separates Apple Computers from other computers is the operating system. It is good but not super fantastic overwhelming great like the Mac Fans think.

Over the years I found out a lot more about Steve Jobs. Some of it was pretty shocking, but I am not going to bring that stuff up. I certainly don't think he was the nicest person in the world.

But all of this is off topic also. What this post really is about is Apple being looked at for tax evasion. There certainly appeared to have been some pretty creative book-keeping. We will see what happens, if anything.

 

[EType]

I think Jobs was nothing short of a genius. Yes he had personality flaws, but we all do and we should look at ourselves before casting so many stones.

Someone like Winston Churchill receives more acclaim (rightly so) than Jobs, but had a far far worse personality.

Would we overlook his accomplishments because of those flaws?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Not true, both the share holder and the customers pay taxes.

Where does the share holder come into this?
Quote:
Your logic is like saying workers don't pay taxes, the customers do, or share holder don't pay taxes, the workers do, etc etc.

Say what?
Quote:
If you look at the demand and supply curve intersection, and have taken any economic course, you'd know that any increase in cost or reduction in price would be felt by both the producer and the consumer.

Of course, but what does that have to do with my post?

 

[Mystic]

EType, Steve Jobs and another guy developed some of the first personal computers that actually sold. By the way the other guy does not receive much credit although some people say that he was more responsible for those first personal computers than Steve Jobs.

But anyway, do you have any idea how much those early personal computers compared to a modern computer? There is no comparison. Steve Jobs and early computer designers were really smart about electronics but todays computers are a lot more than electronics-todays computers are also software. By the time software became so important Steve Jobs was a CEO. Even at NextStep or whatever it was called he was the guy in charge and other people were developing the software. Those people have largely been forgotten.

At Apple Steve Jobs was not the guy developing the advanced software. And he was not the guy developing the designs for new computers either. He was the guy in charge-he was the CEO. Steve Jobs certainly had a lot to say when it came to exterior design and Steve Jobs was the salesman who was able to get people to buy the products. But he was no longer the guy working on electronic circuits for early computers in a garage. Other people were developing the software and the hardware. I am not saying that Steve Jobs did not have any input into software development. But he was the CEO. He was not the computer programmer or the engineer.

A person could be the CEO of Exxon/Mobil and not be a chemist. A person could be the CEO of Dell and not be a computer engineer. A person could be the CEO of an airline and not be a pilot. The CEO of TrendMicro is Eva Chen and she is not a programmer.

The software programmers and engineers who develop those computers and smartphones, etc., are usually invisible.

 

[EType]

Hi Mystic, thank you for the lesson on the computer and technology industry.

Yes, I am quite familiar with the topics you cover. I live in Silicon Valley.

But thank you for your post. It's always good to hear such a unique perspective.

 

[Mystic]

Nothing unique about it. Everybody should know that the CEO of a corporation does not necessarily have to know what the workers at the corporation know.

And this post is not about Steve Jobs anyway. It is about Apple being under fire for allegedly avoiding taxes. Steve Jobs is dead. I used Apple Computers for a long time but I never had a photograph or painting of Steve Jobs on my walls.

 

[EType]

Hi Mystic

No really, don't undersell yourself. You really do have a unique perspective of how and why Steve Jobs was successful.

I have read a lot about this topic and spoken to many people in Apple over many years. Your perspective is truly unique.

Thank you

 

[Mystic]

So you are claiming that I am not telling the truth? We all have available sources of information. There have been books written. Numerous people both inside and outside of Apple have told their stories. So you are a big Apple fan. I used Apple Computers before a lot of these strange cult followers showed up (and before you say something I am not saying that you are a cult follower). I used Apple Computers along with a lot of other people in those days because Apple Computers made it possible to do things that Windows Computers did not allow us to do. Now today, we can't even create a slideshow in iDVD because Apple dropped that software. And I can do computer graphics and work on photographs on Windows Computers the same as on Apple Computers and at less cost.

I can see you are a very big Steve Jobs and Apple fan. That is fine. I have the right to not be a fan. I remember another guy here (Mori) who seemed to start disliking me when I moved away from Apple Computers. I am not the only one here who made commentary on Steve Jobs.

But again, this post is not about Steve Jobs-it is about Apple being under fire for alleged tax evasion. We need to stick to what the post is about.

 

[EType]

Hi Mystic

I don't know how you interpreted me as saying you are not telling the truth.

I am simply acknowledging you have a different perspective and I appreciate you sharing it.

I am not a big Apple fan. The first and only Apple product I have is an iPhone which I got a year ago.

I do have a lot of respect for Steve Jobs. The products that he was responsible for time and time again, including his founding of Pixar which led to him becoming the biggest shareholder in Disney, the fact that Apple became the worlds most valuable company are all a result of his genius.

 

[Mystic]

Again, this post is about Apple being under investigation for evading taxes. I understand how much you admire Steve Jobs, and I understand how much you like Apple. I realize that I must have touched a nerve, just like Mori a long time ago here I think went against me because I said that I was moving away from Apple products. But again, this post is about Apple possibly evading taxes.

 

[EType]

Hello Mystic

I understand that, but since you wrote the long post about your feelings about Steve Jobs below, and since you are the OP, I thought you had expanding on the subject.

Forgive me if I broke some etiquette on this board, I will attempt to do better in future.

On the topic of taxes which I thank you for bringing us back to, you said you wanted to see Apple pay higher taxes. You didn't answer my earlier question on how much US tax would you like to see them pay on their US profit? What rate exactly would you like to see?

Regards


Originally Posted By: Mystic
EType, Steve Jobs and another guy developed some of the first personal computers that actually sold. By the way the other guy does not receive much credit although some people say that he was more responsible for those first personal computers than Steve Jobs.

But anyway, do you have any idea how much those early personal computers compared to a modern computer? There is no comparison. Steve Jobs and early computer designers were really smart about electronics but todays computers are a lot more than electronics-todays computers are also software. By the time software became so important Steve Jobs was a CEO. Even at NextStep or whatever it was called he was the guy in charge and other people were developing the software. Those people have largely been forgotten.

At Apple Steve Jobs was not the guy developing the advanced software. And he was not the guy developing the designs for new computers either. He was the guy in charge-he was the CEO. Steve Jobs certainly had a lot to say when it came to exterior design and Steve Jobs was the salesman who was able to get people to buy the products. But he was no longer the guy working on electronic circuits for early computers in a garage. Other people were developing the software and the hardware. I am not saying that Steve Jobs did not have any input into software development. But he was the CEO. He was not the computer programmer or the engineer.

A person could be the CEO of Exxon/Mobil and not be a chemist. A person could be the CEO of Dell and not be a computer engineer. A person could be the CEO of an airline and not be a pilot. The CEO of TrendMicro is Eva Chen and she is not a programmer.

The software programmers and engineers who develop those computers and smartphones, etc., are usually invisible.

 

[Mystic]

You might recall, EType, that when some people here had some negative viewpoints on Steve Jobs, you said that he was a genius. Now certainly he was a very bright guy, but the entire story about Apple is a long and complicated one. And Steve Jobs was not the only person who made Apple.

I understand how sensitive you are to any criticism about Steve Jobs or Apple. But once again, the post is about Apple coming under fire because of alleged tax evasion. I am trying to keep things on topic.

Long ago Mori, a guy who was here and some people think he keeps coming back with new user names, was also extremely pro-Apple and Steve Jobs and when I moved away from Apple he became extremely hateful towards me.