anyone use Redline 10W 60 in BMW S54 instead TWS?

[ammolab]

I see Shops and tuners that sell/install Redline in the S54 powered M3 BMW cars..

Any owners here that have gone that route vs. the spec'd Castrol TWS 10W-60 oils.

I am sticking with the Castrol TWS as it is only a buck or so more a quart and I am a yearly oil changer on my 2002 MCoupe...no big deal.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: ammolab
I see Shops and tuners that sell/install Redline in the S54 powered M3 BMW cars..

Any owners here that have gone that route vs. the spec'd Castrol TWS 10W-60 oils.

I am sticking with the Castrol TWS as it is only a buck or so more a quart and I am a yearly oil changer on my 2002 MCoupe...no big deal.


IIRC the TWS 10w-60 sold at the dealerships is also a ester base. This is not to be confused with the Castrol 10w-60 available outside the dealerships.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
IIRC the TWS 10w-60 sold at the dealerships is also a ester base.

Correct.

TWS is no joke.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: ammolab
I see Shops and tuners that sell/install Redline in the S54 powered M3 BMW cars..

Any owners here that have gone that route vs. the spec'd Castrol TWS 10W-60 oils.

I am sticking with the Castrol TWS as it is only a buck or so more a quart and I am a yearly oil changer on my 2002 MCoupe...no big deal.

As I'm sure my sig indicates, I'm not one to stick with convention. However, if I had an S54, it would get TWS for sure. TWS was derived from a decades-long line of highly successful lubricants, and it was tailored specifically for BMW M cars in cooperation with BMW M engineers. No other oil on the planet has that advantage.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Regardless, I happened to know for a fact that PTG uses Syntec 5w-50 in their M3 Racer.

They certainly could use any oil they wanted, and their track record speaks for itself.

 

[Trajan]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1482035&page=1

Heard that before in the above thread. Never did get the answer to questions such as this: "How does retaining the warranty on a car by running the oil spec'd for it relate to a race car run on a circuit with no warranty of any kind?"

Now the OP's car is out of warranty, but the question comes up. What does the oil in a race car have to do with a street car.

 

[ammolab]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Regardless, I happened to know for a fact that PTG uses Syntec 5w-50 in their M3 Racer.

They certainly could use any oil they wanted, and their track record speaks for itself.


My record may be more impressive than PTG: I have 54,000miles and 9 years of driving on the same S54 BMW inline 6 using TWS 10W-60... and I can use any oil that I want!

How many times have they pulled the engine on that M3 in the last 9 years?

 

[Trajan]

Maybe not as many as one would think:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/track-racing-forum/75671-video-ptg-m3-crash.html

"Joey Hand wad driving for PTG at the time. He was bumped by another driver went out into the grass and hit a mound of grass the launched him air-borne!!! He went front end over end at least 8 times!!!!!! The went side to side twice!"

Or maybe more: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245431

"Brian Krem talked quite a bit about the motors used in the PTG race cars at TechFest this year. They are ALL 87mm bore, and the strokes varied from 86mm (3.0) to around 94mm (3.3-4, tractor motors). The motors were built as 26-hour motors, and cost quite a bit to purchase. But, as mentioned, they are cammed, low-friction, heavy pumping Euro motors that make a lot of power---what else would we expect from Motorsport?"


Don't know why motors whose life is measured in hours is brought up when talking about engines whose life is measured in years or miles.

 

[SilverC6]

The comparison to a BMW race engine is certainly apples and oranges.

Stick with the TWS in your road going M car - it's Castrol/BMW's uber oil!

 

[VegasKyle]

S54 powered e36/8 M coupe. That is one fantastic automobile right there. Sorry I have nothing of value to add to your thread, just admiration for one of the best cars BMW has ever made.

 

[CATERHAM]

TWS 10W-60 is certainly a controversial oil in even tracked M series BMW's. In street driven cars here in NA where oil temp's rarely reach 100C let alone exceed it it's hard to understand it's use.
If you haven't read Red Line's technical article on BMW oil selection you should:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...icle.aspx?id=13

 

[CATERHAM]

Sorry, here's the correct link:

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Sorry, here's the correct link:

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

Disagree that this is a good source for anything other than Red Line's opinion. It's nothing but a string of anecdotes, vague statements about "experts," and marketing-speak, without a shred of statistics or real data to back any of it up.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
firstly I don't want to comment on the Redline product but simply to add some details about "TWS"

CATERHAM - You said:
"TWS 10W-60 is certainly a controversial oil in even tracked M series BMW's."

It is NOT controversial to BMW or Castrol. They use it and race it - no controversy there! It is true that they are experimenting with lower viscosity products for future use
Mercedes Benz and Porsche raced with it and it makes a great gearbox fluid too - in the right application

As for TWS, you know I have a unique history with this product. It does have an ester content (traceable back to the 1970s and Germany) whilst the Castrol version has a PAO content

These lubricants have a wide following in Europe in a variety of vehicles - its excellent reputation is well justified - in its intended and recommended applications. I would use it over any other 10W-60 product in a flash - perhaps I'm a little biased, then, I have a right to be

I also used it as my base lubricant in many engine families for almost two decades - in one high performance Nissan engine it did 160kkms (100k miles). It was as clean as new at that point!

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Sorry, here's the correct link:

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

Disagree that this is a good source for anything other than Red Line's opinion. It's nothing but a string of anecdotes, vague statements about "experts," and marketing-speak, without a shred of statistics or real data to back any of it up.

That's a little harsh summation of RL and their motives.
Yes it is RL's opinion but it is an honest opinion based on actual experience. Furthermore they have nothing to gain by recommending one of their lighter grades since they do offer a 10w-60 product. They could easily have kept their mouths shut (like most companies) and simply pushed their own ester based 10W-60 grade.
They haven't, and I respect the company all the more for it.

 

[jaj]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
...Don't know why motors whose life is measured in hours is brought up when talking about engines whose life is measured in years or miles.


Because in the remarkable case of Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 engine oil, real racing engines and production M-series road engines get the exact same oil from the BMW factory.

I believe that Porsche does the same with Mobil 1 0w-40 - it's both the racing oil and the production oil.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Yes it is RL's opinion but it is an honest opinion based on actual experience.

Since they don't back anything up with real data, they provide no way for us to evaluate their honesty or experience. In the end, it still comes down to "take our word for it." It's no more convincing than naked marketing.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Furthermore they have nothing to gain by recommending one of their lighter grades since they do offer a 10w-60 product. They could easily have kept their mouths shut (like most companies) and simply pushed their own ester based 10W-60 grade.
They haven't, and I respect the company all the more for it.

I beg to differ.

One of their selling points is the idea that switching to their oils could allow you to step down a grade and get similar protection. It's exactly the kind of thing that resonates with the kinds of people who would express interest in a product like Red Line's.

Moreover, the fact that BMW specs such a thick oil for the M cars is a frequent object of skepticism. It only makes sense for Red Line to push that button.

Besides, Red Line owes its existence largely to people who instinctively disbelieve what the OEMs tell them.

Suggesting a thinner oil for a newer M3 and then saying "we can handle it" is 100% in line with Red Line's narrative and makes eminent marketing sense.

 

[CATERHAM]

Wow, you really are on an anti RL tear!

You said;
"One of their selling points is the idea that switching to their oils could allow you to step down a grade and get similar protection. It's exactly the kind of thing that resonates with the kinds of people who would express interest in a product like Red Line's."

There is a very good technical reason why RL suggests you can often drop a grade in switching to their 5W-XX or heavier motor oils. It's all because of their unprecedently high HTHS vis levels which are higher than another oils on the market.
More should heed this advise but few do.

For the OP.
RL's 10W-60 has a HTHS vis of 6.7cP which makes it even heavier than Castrol's TWS 10W-60. I don't know the exact HTHS vis of the Castrol oil but I believe it is in the 5cP range.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: jaj
Originally Posted By: Trajan
...Don't know why motors whose life is measured in hours is brought up when talking about engines whose life is measured in years or miles.


Because in the remarkable case of Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 engine oil, real racing engines and production M-series road engines get the exact same oil from the BMW factory.

I believe that Porsche does the same with Mobil 1 0w-40 - it's both the racing oil and the production oil.


If you bothered to look, you would of seen this: "Regardless, I happened to know for a fact that PTG uses Syntec 5w-50 in their M3 Racer."

So the question stands.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Wow, you really are on an anti RL tear!

Please, please, please tell me you understand the difference between skepticism and animosity.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
There is a very good technical reason why RL suggests you can often drop a grade in switching to their 5W-XX or heavier motor oils. It's all because of their unprecedently high HTHS vis levels which are higher than another oils on the market.
More should heed this advise but few do.

Agreed. But I never said otherwise, did I?

What I said was that this claim is one of their party pieces, and thus your assertion that they have nothing to gain by playing it up is false. I never said there was nothing to back it up.