Okay, so I may be way up in the night here - please tell me if I am. I like the robustness and detergents of the HDEO's. The Zinc also. I've seen what a difference Rotella 15w40 makes in my sisters 01 Jeep Cherokee 4.0. But my Jeep Patriot is spec'd for 5W-20 or 5w30. Are there any HDEO's that would fit my bill. It can get fairly cold where I live but I am going to install a Wolverine oil pan heater. The one 5w30 I've seen in this forum is the Castrol Elexion but that stuff is expensive! Any others ideas or should I just chuck this line of thinking and stick with my MC5K 5W-20? The engine is the 2.4L "World Engine". Thanks for any input.
Any HDEO suitable for 5W-20 spec'd engine?
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There are some 0w30 HDEO's available, but good luck finding them outside of Canada.
Just run a stout 5w-20 like Pennzoil Ultra and you will be fine.
Just run a stout 5w-20 like Pennzoil Ultra and you will be fine.
Originally Posted By: VNTS
T6 5w30 Rotella
T5 10w30 Rotella
Unless something momentous occurred and I have been asleep (please wake me so I can go buy some), don't you mean 5W40 Rotella T6??
There's Amsoil 5W30 HDD and Castrol Elixion 5W30. You can order the Amsoil easily enough but the Elixion is elusive.
They used to make a straight grade 20 diesel oil, probably still do, but I would carefully check it's formulation and approvals before putting it into a gasser. The HDEO's we talk about have dual "C" and "S" approvals. I'll let you research the details, but some diesel rated oils are not suitable for gassers.
T6 5w30 Rotella
T5 10w30 Rotella
Unless something momentous occurred and I have been asleep (please wake me so I can go buy some), don't you mean 5W40 Rotella T6??
There's Amsoil 5W30 HDD and Castrol Elixion 5W30. You can order the Amsoil easily enough but the Elixion is elusive.
They used to make a straight grade 20 diesel oil, probably still do, but I would carefully check it's formulation and approvals before putting it into a gasser. The HDEO's we talk about have dual "C" and "S" approvals. I'll let you research the details, but some diesel rated oils are not suitable for gassers.
You can use Lawn equipment 10w30 like John Deere turfguard, or the Mobil 1 10w30 has SL levels of zinc and is ACEA A3, B3 B4 with 3.7 HTHS. You should never need over a heavy 30wt on most any modern engine.
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Woops, your right brain cramp.
he could run the Amsoil 5w30 HDD diesel, that is a good one.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: VNTS
T6 5w30 Rotella
I sure wish there was such a thing. The Rotella web site lists T6 as only being available in 5w40.
he could run the Amsoil 5w30 HDD diesel, that is a good one.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: VNTS
T6 5w30 Rotella
I sure wish there was such a thing. The Rotella web site lists T6 as only being available in 5w40.
Shell Rotella is available in 10w30. It's called 'Triple T', not T6.
The Rotella blends are availabe through a Shell dealer/distributor.
Triple T Rotella is quit good.
The Rotella blends are availabe through a Shell dealer/distributor.
Triple T Rotella is quit good.
dnewton3
Staff member
I would think your reasonable options would either be Rotella Triple Protection 10w30 conventional or T5 (semi-syn). The T5 is now available in many Walmarts.
All the big name companies make a conventional 10w30 HDEO, but good luck trying to find them. Rotella is the ONLY brand I've been successful at getting in anything other than 15w40.
Overall, though, while I understand the attraction to HDEO, I don't think it's warranted in a new gasser. The PCMOs of today from the big brand names are quite good, as are the engines they go into.
I think there a lot of instances where we BITOGers overthink or over-rationalize a lube selection.
I ran a 6k mile OCI with UOA on my new Fusion and it was quite decent, especially considering it was the first OCI after the factory fill. The TBN was expecially strong even after 6k miles. What's wrong with using your current use of Clean 5000 in the correct grade? Probably nothing at all. It's likely your perception that needs to be adjusted, not your lube selection.
All the big name companies make a conventional 10w30 HDEO, but good luck trying to find them. Rotella is the ONLY brand I've been successful at getting in anything other than 15w40.
Overall, though, while I understand the attraction to HDEO, I don't think it's warranted in a new gasser. The PCMOs of today from the big brand names are quite good, as are the engines they go into.
I think there a lot of instances where we BITOGers overthink or over-rationalize a lube selection.
I ran a 6k mile OCI with UOA on my new Fusion and it was quite decent, especially considering it was the first OCI after the factory fill. The TBN was expecially strong even after 6k miles. What's wrong with using your current use of Clean 5000 in the correct grade? Probably nothing at all. It's likely your perception that needs to be adjusted, not your lube selection.
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The lighter HDEO slaughter the horrendously marginal API GF-4 5w30 in demanding apps. Most all GF-4 shear way out of grade in any stressfull application. MC5k, GTX, Pennzoil conventional. I hold out hope that the newer GF5 will be improved. In the mean time, Why are you guys afraid of using a lawn equipment HD oil? Like I stated White(Olympic) brand 5w30 HD is the best 5w30 ive run in a decade. It is pricy though.
Shearing out of grade by itself should not condemn an oil, because, as we all know, viscosity has little to do with engine protection.
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
The lighter HDEO slaughter the horrendously marginal API GF-4 5w30 in demanding apps. Most all GF-4 shear way out of grade in any stressfull application. MC5k, GTX, Pennzoil conventional. I hold out hope that the newer GF5 will be improved. In the mean time, Why are you guys afraid of using a lawn equipment HD oil? Like I stated White(Olympic) brand 5w30 HD is the best 5w30 ive run in a decade. It is pricy though.
In a "stressfull" application, this might likely be true. But in his application, I don't see why the products you listed would not work.
My used oil analysis early this year from my 2.5L Ford using MC5K in 5w-20 didn't shear much at all over 6k miles, and likley could have gone the whole 7.5K (OEM-recommended) miles easily, including the TBN.
My point? He has no "need" for an HDEO; he "wants" it. Any of the quality brand name 5w-20s will protect his engine well past the point he probably intends to own it, if he simply sticks to a good maintenance plan as set out by the OEM.
The lighter HDEO slaughter the horrendously marginal API GF-4 5w30 in demanding apps. Most all GF-4 shear way out of grade in any stressfull application. MC5k, GTX, Pennzoil conventional. I hold out hope that the newer GF5 will be improved. In the mean time, Why are you guys afraid of using a lawn equipment HD oil? Like I stated White(Olympic) brand 5w30 HD is the best 5w30 ive run in a decade. It is pricy though.
In a "stressfull" application, this might likely be true. But in his application, I don't see why the products you listed would not work.
My used oil analysis early this year from my 2.5L Ford using MC5K in 5w-20 didn't shear much at all over 6k miles, and likley could have gone the whole 7.5K (OEM-recommended) miles easily, including the TBN.
My point? He has no "need" for an HDEO; he "wants" it. Any of the quality brand name 5w-20s will protect his engine well past the point he probably intends to own it, if he simply sticks to a good maintenance plan as set out by the OEM.
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Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Shearing out of grade by itself should not condemn an oil, because, as we all know, viscosity has little to do with engine protection.
Well it has everything to due with not spinning a rod big end - if you drive like I do.
Shearing out of grade by itself should not condemn an oil, because, as we all know, viscosity has little to do with engine protection.
Well it has everything to due with not spinning a rod big end - if you drive like I do.
+1 for Rotella T5 10w30
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
ARCOgraphite said:
dnewton3
Staff member
My wife's 1995 Villager has 191k miles on PCMO. Mostly conventional, but some syn's intermittnetly along the way (experiments). But I've been using conventional's for problably 160k of the 191K miles, and I'm committed to conventionals every 5k miles from here to it's death (if it ever does die ...). I am convinced via used oil analysis evidence that they are fully capable of any job I put them to, as long as I stay within their range of ability.
Our Villager engine is spotless inside (I know, because I had to pull the heads after she over-heated it when the water pump went out and she kept driving). The compression is great; no better or worse then before the over-heating incident. The seals are in good shape; no major leaks. All this on conventional PCMO. I don't know that an HDEO would have done any better or worse, but at some point, it's just a moot point.
I've also had my (presiously owned) 1996 Vulcan 3.0 Taurus valve covers off after a full life of conventional oil, and the heads were spotless (and Gary Allan can attest; he's seen the photo's). Further, the used oil analysis suggest the wear was well within acceptable limits.
Fundementally, I see many people "overbuy" their oil for a given application. Perhaps an HDEO would do "better", but to what point? If PCMO can run you past 250K miles (and there are plenty of evidentiary points proving this), then why spend the extra cost?
What most people don't understand is that there are three levels of oil: good, better, best. But that is NOT an indication of how well they do any task, rather it is how LONG they do that task. Syns don't protect against wear any "better" than a conventional at 5k miles. Syns DO protect LONGER (more mileage) against wear. The same concept goes for cleaning an engine. If your engine only produces contaminants at a given rate, then any oil will do well until the add-pack is overwhelmed.
Will a conventional HDEO do a "better" job in the engine than a PCMO? That depends upon how long you leave it in there. If you're going to OCI at "normal" OEM recommended rates, than I say a PCMO will do just fine, and there is no real advantage to using an HDEO. If you're going to extend the OCI, then HDEO or syn's with the bolstered add packs will survive longer.
Think of it this way:
a cheap conventional oil will likely last 3k miles, but then give out
a quality conventional PCMO oil will likely run at least 5k miles, maybe more
a quality conventional HDEO may last 7.5k miles easily, but perhaps more
a quality synthetic would likely last 10k miles, likely more
any oil, combined with bypass filtration, will likely go well past 25k miles
Get the point? This is about how LONG you use the oil, not how much "better" one is over the other. For any given duration, you can either under or over utilize your oil.
You are under the same gross misconception that most people fall into; if some thing is good, then more is better! But ONLY if you use it in the correct perspective. If you use a premium group IV synthetic, but only for 5k miles, used oil analysis evidence clearly shows that it does not protect or clean any "better" than a quality conventional.
Now, I will define the term "cleanliness" as a matter of contamination that affects the performance of an engine in a detrimental state. I do not believe that every molecule of dirt of varnish is inherently evil and will bring untimely death to my ride. It is only the gross accumulation of contaminants, past the ability of any given oil to hold it in suspension, that makes for bad engine life. Yes, I've seen the wonders of marketing on the TV commercials, but I've also had my wife's engine apart, and I'm telling you that some small amount of dirt is simply a non-issue.
It's a matter of how you define "better". You won't get less wear or more cleaning using an HDEO versus a PCMO. But you'd likely get LONGER use of the product.
Our Villager engine is spotless inside (I know, because I had to pull the heads after she over-heated it when the water pump went out and she kept driving). The compression is great; no better or worse then before the over-heating incident. The seals are in good shape; no major leaks. All this on conventional PCMO. I don't know that an HDEO would have done any better or worse, but at some point, it's just a moot point.
I've also had my (presiously owned) 1996 Vulcan 3.0 Taurus valve covers off after a full life of conventional oil, and the heads were spotless (and Gary Allan can attest; he's seen the photo's). Further, the used oil analysis suggest the wear was well within acceptable limits.
Fundementally, I see many people "overbuy" their oil for a given application. Perhaps an HDEO would do "better", but to what point? If PCMO can run you past 250K miles (and there are plenty of evidentiary points proving this), then why spend the extra cost?
What most people don't understand is that there are three levels of oil: good, better, best. But that is NOT an indication of how well they do any task, rather it is how LONG they do that task. Syns don't protect against wear any "better" than a conventional at 5k miles. Syns DO protect LONGER (more mileage) against wear. The same concept goes for cleaning an engine. If your engine only produces contaminants at a given rate, then any oil will do well until the add-pack is overwhelmed.
Will a conventional HDEO do a "better" job in the engine than a PCMO? That depends upon how long you leave it in there. If you're going to OCI at "normal" OEM recommended rates, than I say a PCMO will do just fine, and there is no real advantage to using an HDEO. If you're going to extend the OCI, then HDEO or syn's with the bolstered add packs will survive longer.
Think of it this way:
a cheap conventional oil will likely last 3k miles, but then give out
a quality conventional PCMO oil will likely run at least 5k miles, maybe more
a quality conventional HDEO may last 7.5k miles easily, but perhaps more
a quality synthetic would likely last 10k miles, likely more
any oil, combined with bypass filtration, will likely go well past 25k miles
Get the point? This is about how LONG you use the oil, not how much "better" one is over the other. For any given duration, you can either under or over utilize your oil.
You are under the same gross misconception that most people fall into; if some thing is good, then more is better! But ONLY if you use it in the correct perspective. If you use a premium group IV synthetic, but only for 5k miles, used oil analysis evidence clearly shows that it does not protect or clean any "better" than a quality conventional.
Now, I will define the term "cleanliness" as a matter of contamination that affects the performance of an engine in a detrimental state. I do not believe that every molecule of dirt of varnish is inherently evil and will bring untimely death to my ride. It is only the gross accumulation of contaminants, past the ability of any given oil to hold it in suspension, that makes for bad engine life. Yes, I've seen the wonders of marketing on the TV commercials, but I've also had my wife's engine apart, and I'm telling you that some small amount of dirt is simply a non-issue.
It's a matter of how you define "better". You won't get less wear or more cleaning using an HDEO versus a PCMO. But you'd likely get LONGER use of the product.
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