Any easy sludge test?

yummy88 · Apr 29, 2007

I have a 97 Toyota Avalon. This car has the infamous sludge monster V6.

Now aside from the sludge problems, these V6 are excellent engines - quiet, powerful (200hp), easy 20mpg city (I drive hard) and 30 mpg highway.

I suspect that given the internet, everyone now thinks that all these engines are sludge monsters - this is not true. As such, one can get pretty good deals on these cars.

So how to tell if a car is sludged? You cannot peek into oil filler cap because there is an oil baffle. Other then opening up the valve cover (owner is not going to allow you to do that) is there any other way to tell if car has sludge?

How about sticking an extra long dipstick that can reach into the oil pan and hopefully pick up some sludge.

I guess the best bet is check the smog results and if HC is good then it means engine is still good. And after purchase open valve cover and take a good look see.

TurboJim · Apr 29, 2007

You might make the assumption prior to purchasing that you will need to replace the PVC valve on a regular basis and do a ARX treatment or two as a precaution. It would be easier to do those things than go through the hassle of removing both valve covers for visual proof one way or another.

badtlc · Apr 29, 2007

You definitely need to do something extra to prevent ths sludge in these monsters. My fiance had a 1999 Avalon with that same v6. It saw nothing but 3000 mile OCIs. It took 190,000 miles but it still sludged up. And yes, the PCV was changed every two years.

nicholas · Apr 29, 2007

maybe one a year flush with light chemicals ????
MMO or mineral spirits ??

SargeGTO · Apr 29, 2007

I assume your asking for a non intrusive sludge test and I cannot think of one short of a blotter test....and I'm not sure that will get you where you want to be.
Pulling valve covers and cutting the oil filter open are the two least intrusive methods I know of.
I would look at the oil pressure and see if it is rising and falling along with the rpms. Does the motor have the power it should? Engine temps OK?

sky jumper · Apr 29, 2007

pull out the PCV. if it's plugged with sludge, good chance the engine is too. blotter test should also give you a clue. of course, a dishonest (but shrewd) seller could replace the oil, filter, & PCV to fool you.

maybe tell the seller you want your mechanic to check it out. take it home, drain the oil, and stick a bent Q-tip up inside the drain plug hole and swab around. if there's sludge, you'll pick some up.

yummy88 · Apr 30, 2007

Does the PCV have to be changed even though it rattles freely when shaken. So far I have just blasted it with carb cleaner and it seem fine.

yummy88 · Apr 30, 2007

I guess folks driving this V6 should just go do a couple of ARX treatments followed by use of synthetic oil.

It is a pity because these engines are smooth, powerful and have decent fuel consumption.

SFCP · Apr 30, 2007

You could cut the oil baffle off.

drivewaytech · Apr 30, 2007

Quote:

maybe tell the seller you want your mechanic to check it out. take it home, drain the oil, and stick a bent Q-tip up inside the drain plug hole and swab around. if there's sludge, you'll pick some up.

This seems to be a very good suggestion when faced with buying a car that has reported history of sluding. Just make sure you fill and plug eveything up before you return it. "Sorry for the blown engine, but not interested."..lol
Discovering that a vehicle has a case of the black death after you have made the purchase is no fun! I know this first hand. I ran flexible speaker wire into the oil fill and PCV port to see what it would pick-up, non-evasive way to get a picture of what is under the valve covers. Did this a few days after I bought it... oh well.

BrianWC · Apr 30, 2007

They are a great value regardless. Assuming it is still quiet, buy it, arx it a couple or so times, and use synth. It's a Toyota, man.

I know I'll get flamed for that but my brother's done two oil changes the whole time he's owned his Tacoma. All he does is top off. 250,000 of that and he's never taken the thing to a mechanic.....

TurboJim · Apr 30, 2007

Rattling is not a good way to determine if it's still operating within it's intended specifications. For more information check out this link:

http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/94-2R1.html

John K · Apr 30, 2007

Interesting link on pcv valves. I have had many cars that I don't think I ever replaced the pcv valve, but did the cleaning and rattle test. I guess I should be more proactive on them and routinely change them as they aren't that expensive. I did have to pay $10 for one for a PT Cruiser once, dealer was the only place that had them. I thought that was a bit high....

sky jumper · Apr 30, 2007

the info in that link is way too conservative. new PCV every 10k miles?? please. just look at who published the document, and ask yourself what their motive might be.

the PCV is a simple device that is simple to test, and simple to clean. OEM don't specify change intervals on most models, and most dealers I've talked to don't even stock them.

Durango · Apr 30, 2007

Quote:

maybe one a year flush with light chemicals ????
MMO or mineral spirits ??

nicholas,

I'm with you on that issue! Toyota just needs to offer for a fee/service a engine flush to be done once per year. Perhaps it should just be incorporated into the services schedule that comes with every manual.

Durango

ThirdeYe · Apr 30, 2007

Quote:

Interesting link on pcv valves. I have had many cars that I don't think I ever replaced the pcv valve, but did the cleaning and rattle test. I guess I should be more proactive on them and routinely change them as they aren't that expensive. I did have to pay $10 for one for a PT Cruiser once, dealer was the only place that had them. I thought that was a bit high....

Don't feel too bad, my PCV valve was $16 from Acura

John K · Apr 30, 2007

Ouch. And I thought $10 was bad. Mine did not look like it should cost any more than others. I figure it was worht $3 or so....... Thanks for trying to make me feel better though!

derek244 · May 3, 2007

First of all, remove the front valve cover to inspect for sludge, period. The cam cap bolts will be one of the first areas it starts to "rest". If the owner does not allow it, forget it. It was not meant to be. If there is sludge, the owner can go get a free engine repair (no $$$ limit) at your local Toyota dealer (providing it has not been done before!)

Second, I am a SERIOUSLY biased on the sludge subject. I am a BITOG newbie sure to get smacked, so I apologize in advance....

I have never, never, never, ever, ever, seen a Toyota engine sludge with documented engine oil and filter changes at 3000-5000 intervals. NEVER. I have seen hundreds of all of the engines involved in the "sludge" campaign. I noticed that 95% of the engines we were repairing had never been in our shop, and had shoddy documentation of maintenance if any. The other 5% were doing OCI's at 7000-10000 miles, or more! Toyota made a serious mistake in 1997 and several years following that when they recommended a 7500 mile OCI for "normal" driving in the owners manual. The PVC issue has not been proven to lessen or effect the sludge build up if you continue to use extended OCI's. Most customers did not even notice the 7500 mile change in the manual and continued to change oil at 5,000 miles at never had an issue. They are covering millions of dollars in engine repairs for owners as a result. I am a Toyota service manager, so you see my reason for being biased.

Ok, let the beating begin.

Squishy · May 4, 2007

That q-tip idea is interesting. How much sludge would you reasonably expect to pick up from an old engine? I'd expect at least a little bit if the engine's known to sludge and/or has seen some miles. When do we start to worry?

Any easy sludge test?

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