Any data showing synths give better mileage?
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I remember watching the show Horsepower TV. They dynoed a car for a baseline then changed all the fluids to synthetic. Dynoed the car again.There was a measureable increase in horsepower due to the lower friction. 3 -4% maybe.
Patman
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New York State Police were running Amsoil in all of their Harley Davidson motorcycles (enigne, transmission & primary case) in 2002. I'm not sure if they still do or not.
I have never met a trucker who uses synthetic either, but I have never gone out of my way to ask one what kinda of oil he uses.
Redline spends alot of money advetising in the trucking industry. I doubt they would do this if the customers weren't their.
I have not noticed any difference whatsoever between various oils, synthetic versus dino, 5w30 versus 10w30, or K&N verus paper filters (not that you asked....).
But if you find such a study, unbiased and performed with a double blind method, I am all ears....
Bob W.
Here's a University Study of a Light-Duty, 2.2L Direct-Injection Diesel Engine where they found 10.2% difference dependent on viscosity grade, 8.1% difference dependent on FMs, and 4.5% difference dependent on base oils at operating temperatures.
Not sure how it would correlate with real world operating conditions.
Not sure how it would correlate with real world operating conditions.
The most dramatic results were at light engine loads. I would expect the percentage of power lost to friction to be lower at higher loads and the results to be less dramatic.
Hmmm...now that I think about it, it's usually "Girlie Men" drivers that see great improvement in gas mileage while changing variables. If you drive "Terminator" style, you usually see little difference. So it actually correlates well with the real world.
Essentially my SWAG of 1-3 mpg savings mikes out to between 3-8%(real world). I have been on lower viscosiy synthetic a tad too long to SWAG any current differences when changing between convention and synthetic and vice versa. I am essential approaching my conventional 5w20 change to 0w20 Mobil 1 as a new experiement. If folks want, I can update as it happens, but if it is not of interest, I can say at this point, based on my own experiences and scientific studies such as 427Z06, I am confident that things will go well with the change.
Good discussion.
I honestly think most improvement in MPG, if any, are hidden in the background noise.
I honestly think most improvement in MPG, if any, are hidden in the background noise.
I think that it will depend on the engine more than anything else. Some cars will do slightly better with synthetics, some won't notice any difference.
I think it would also make a difference if the transmission, differential and transfer case (if so equipped) were filled with synthetic as well.
I noticed a difference of about 2MPG when I switched my Jeep to synthetics in both differentials, transmission and transfer case, as well as the engine (which has had Full Synthetic since day 1).
I think it would also make a difference if the transmission, differential and transfer case (if so equipped) were filled with synthetic as well.
I noticed a difference of about 2MPG when I switched my Jeep to synthetics in both differentials, transmission and transfer case, as well as the engine (which has had Full Synthetic since day 1).
Nissan Navara Turbodiesel.
Factory fill conventional 10w30 10.95km/l until 2700km.
DeloCXJ conventional 15w40 conventional 10.25km/l for the next 7500km
Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic 10.70km/l for the next 10000km.
Castrol Formula R 0W-40 10.50km/l for the next 3200km.
The M1 certainly gave better mileage than the 15w40 conventional. Could be synthetics, could be additive.
The Castrol is over 10% thinner than the M-1, and shows poorer mileage.
Factory fill conventional 10w30 10.95km/l until 2700km.
DeloCXJ conventional 15w40 conventional 10.25km/l for the next 7500km
Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic 10.70km/l for the next 10000km.
Castrol Formula R 0W-40 10.50km/l for the next 3200km.
The M1 certainly gave better mileage than the 15w40 conventional. Could be synthetics, could be additive.
The Castrol is over 10% thinner than the M-1, and shows poorer mileage.
1) Since the majority of fleets use a 15w40 petroleum oil it makes sense to test against that oil weight. Also, since Amsoil makes a 5w30 which produces better fuel economy then their 15w40 it makes no sense to run the test on their 15w40 if they want fleets to gain maximum economy. BTW, judging from data I have seen from another 40w synthetic oil I would guess the difference would be around 1.1% to 1.42% mpg gain over the 40w just from lower viscocity and about 2% to 2.2% mpg gain of synthetic over petroleum in the same 40 weight.
2) See answer above. The claim about protecting better is not BS.
3) these are not signs of pure marketing BS. These are signs that marketing has choosen to highlight the results while discussing the test in detail. As to not naming the lab, this is standard procedure as the lab does not want to be fielding unecessary phone calls which their policies prohibit them from talking about any customer results. The exception is generally the FTC which would still require written authorization from Amsoil to release. Since the FTC has never gone after Amsoil and required them to stop making any of their claims then you can assume that they have all the independant lab data to back up their claims.
BTW, Mobil make claims of >2% and 3-5% increases in mpg using Delvac 1 and you don't see the FTC stopping them either. They don't publish all their test data either.
4) You would then lose a large amount of money. The SAE J1321 test is an accepted industry standard. It has its problems but the accuracy is generally acceptable given its limitations.
I have done my own testing on something as simple as a 2hp air compressor using Amsoil synthetic versus HItachi non synthetic compressor oil. The results were a greater than 5% reduction in amp draw using the synthetic.
You can use a compressor to test motor oil friction reduction if you want. Just don't leave it in the compressor after the testing is done. This will show a low to high load as the compressor tanks fill with pressure and increase the load. I had heard that you could see a reduction of up to 17% and I was hoping to see higher but only saw 14.1/14.9 amps or about 5.5% reduction. This was with an ISO 100 oil. Hey, I have some ISO 68 oil....I wonder.....
I have lots of data on fleets as well as their reasons for not using synthetics. You cannot assume anything from their actions nor their purchases. That is about as much good advice on your assumption as I will give.
Patman
Staff member
FM=Friction Modifier
Your assuptions on the reasons most do not use synthetics in the engines are for the most part incorrect assumptions.
The majority of fleets use synthetic in the transmission's, diffs, and hubs. I don't know where you get your information from but it is not true.
The reasons given by the fleet managers, directors and VP's of transportation for not using synthetics are many but so far none have been backed up by accurate factual data. At least the ones I have talked to in the USA anyway.
It is mostly the independent owner/operators who run synthetic. Those that drive company trucks havn't a clue what goes in their trucks.
Cat, Cummins, Detroit all say the same thing when they say anything at all. They are in the business to sell new engines at 600k miles which is when most large fleets sell off their vehicles and buy newer ones. Anything that reduces wear in an engine and adds to its longevity is a threat to their business and is best not mentioned or played down if asked. Synthetics do reduce wear significantly in all three of these makers engines compared to fleet oils which can be gotten for as little as $2.50 / gallon for the largest fleets and $3.80/gallon for the small ones.
I have seen many fleets tied to 5 yr oil contracts so the opportunity for change comes about twice a decade. Testing and cost/benefit analysis are usually poorly done or mostly not done at all. Price being the only consideration in the equation. Perhaps this will change but I don't think it will until diesel hit $3/gallon or more.
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