Anti-seize On Lugnuts?

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: mva
Originally Posted By: Ken2

The tightening force on a nut is the combination of friction in the threads, friction of the bolt face against the base (wheel in this case), and stretch of the bolt. A torque spec takes all these into account (and among other factors includes the friction of the factory finish on the threads). If you reduce the friction by lubing with antiseize but torque to the same spec, you run the risk of stretching the bolt beyond its yield point (permanently stretched) or stretching to breakage.
Agree 100%

Use antiseize or any oil or lube on wheel studs at your own risk.



Achieving correct torque with a torque wrench is not an exact science to start out. The engineering figures I have studied say that the final torque using a torque wrench (vs. measuring stretch)can vary +/- 30% due to variables in fastener coatings, thread shape/damage, dirt/corrosion, and on and on.

In this case, the fasteners/assembly have to be designed for these variables. It's not like an engine rebuild in more controlled situations.

So, you guys that are paranoid of the extra slippery-ness added by anti-seize don't seem to be worried about the extra friction added by corrosion, etc. that could result in under torqueing, thread damage, breakage, etc..

One way or another, the goal is to maintain the threads in like new condition. Some kind of treatment will be required in the rust belt.

Maybe I need to start a new thread, but what about the one link's statement recommending no lube between the wheel and the hub..., indicating this is even more prone to allow wheel loosening?

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Maybe I need to start a new thread, but what about the one link's statement recommending no lube between the wheel and the hub..., indicating this is even more prone to allow wheel loosening?

Antiseize between wheel and hub will not affect the lugnut clamping force. It'll only help prevent the wheel from sticking on the hub.

I wonder if the poster didn't confuse that with putting antiseize on the lugnut face, where it contacts the rim. That has a large effect on lugnut torque and is a big no-no.

 

[doitmyself]

Hi Kestas,

I hope you are doing well, neighbor. I agree on your statements.

If you go to the link posted earlier by Oilboy123, there is some VERY interesting info posted by "John2003"....his last post seems to make some very practical conclusions about antiseize on lugs and wheels:

http://www.engineersedge.com/wwwboard/posts/13070.html

"At the http://www.boltscience.com website, they say that it is actually transverse joint movement that causes loosening of threaded fasteners. In the case of a wheel, friction between the wheel and the hub prevent traverse movement. The friction is generated by the axial force generated by the torqued lug nuts.

Because of traverse movement causing joint loosening, it's probably best to not use anti seize or any lube on the back side of the rim where it contacts the rotors, hub, or brake drums."

FYI, I keep my wheel/hub/rotor hat interface clean and use a "tiny" bit of anti seized here to reduce sticking. The quote above suggests this is wrong....I don't buy that argument, but does anyone have an explanation?

 

[eljefino]

I would worry about loosening with flat faced lugnuts especially with washers for alloy wheels but acorn ones ought to clamp everything down from twisting in that scenario.

That bolt science website is pretty good.

 

[onion]

I'm pretty amused by how much discussion this topic generates around here- even in-depth and downright contentious discussion. Good gawd we're a bunch of nerds.

Clearly I'm in the pro-antiseize faction. And I'd like to ask members of the anti-antiseize faction this: Have you ever personally SEEN a lug nut/stud failure due to antiseize or various thread lubrication? 'Cause I can guarantee you that just about everybody on this thread HAS seen lug nut failure due to seized threads. And as others have pointed out, if you're concerned about lug nuts coming loose (and I personally think that's a non-issue so long as one is anywhere close to reasonable when installing the wheel), then why aren't ya'll similarly concerned about UNDER-torquing?

Dry, bare threads- rust, worn plating, rough threads, etc. all contribute to LESS than desired bolt-stretch. And that's just as big an unknown as the possibility of too much bolt stretch. As the vehicle ages and the studs wear and corrode, a certain amount of uncertainty IS introduced- whether you add antiseize or not. Whether you clean the threads with a wire brush or not. So unless ya'll recommend replacing wheel studs every 5 years (or less in some areas), then you're dealing with just as much uncertainty as those of us who apply antiseize. AND your lug nuts will be far more susceptible to corrosion and seizing.

 

[Shovel Head Ted]

I have always put anti-seize on the lugnuts of every vehicle or trailer that I have ever owned for the last 35 years. I put it on the threads and the base of the nut where it contacts the wheel, then torque to factory spec. I have never ever had one come loose. Very easy to remove nuts.

 

[urrlord]

i've seen pink lotion dish detergent used,rubbing a candle on the threads or running a grease pecil down the threads,light coat of lithium spray.no problems experienced.
although i usually just put a little oil or antiseize on my lugs if it is handy,esp after having to break a few lugs off my suzuki due to rusting.
btw- which form of anti-seize are people using?i have a large bottle of lead based paste.i seem to recall seeing a small jar of copper based in the past.and the small lithium based packets at checkout counter.

 

[onion]

I've used the silver stuff, this nickel stuff, the copper stuff, even the graphite stuff... whatever is handy. Doesn't seem to make any difference.

 

[Shannow]

Grandad used to use the dipstick to apply a drop of oil onto each stud...simple and amply available.

I've used silver slip, but I think currently molykote.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Maybe I need to start a new thread, but what about the one link's statement recommending no lube between the wheel and the hub..., indicating this is even more prone to allow wheel loosening?

Antiseize between wheel and hub will not affect the lugnut clamping force. It'll only help prevent the wheel from sticking on the hub.

I wonder if the poster didn't confuse that with putting antiseize on the lugnut face, where it contacts the rim. That has a large effect on lugnut torque and is a big no-no.


Thank you for addressing a question I did not ask. On my Saturn I have been applying AS to the lug threads for some time now. But just recently I have noticed that the lugnuts themselves have threads on them that contact the wheel. I have been reluctant to apply AS to this area since everything has been working just fine. I will heed your warning and at most I will do is take a clean toothbrush to them if they get build up. The lugs are a brass color.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Because of traverse movement causing joint loosening, it's probably best to not use anti seize or any lube on the back side of the rim where it contacts the rotors, hub, or brake drums."

This is something I haven't considered. What you say is true - that movement is what causes fastener failure. If you get no movement, there will be no fastener failure. This is taught in class, when discussing fastener failures.

 

[4ever4d]

This has and still is an informative thread to say the least, i wouldn't have imagined this subject would have been this technical.I do believe that i will try AS on the lugs next time i need to remove the wheels.It appears to be the consenus that,that is the best option to prevent seized lug nuts or bolts,whatever the case may be.Thanks for all the informative posts on this subject.BITOG is a great site for sure.As a side note i had never considered the subject of lubeing the mateing surface of the wheel to hub nor the taper of the nut itself to the wheel.Good stuff here!

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28

Thank you for addressing a question I did not ask. On my Saturn I have been applying AS to the lug threads for some time now. But just recently I have noticed that the lugnuts themselves have threads on them that contact the wheel. I have been reluctant to apply AS to this area since everything has been working just fine. I will heed your warning and at most I will do is take a clean toothbrush to them if they get build up. The lugs are a brass color.


Those outer threads are for the hubcap!

The brass color is just good grade steel.

 

[fsskier]

My vote: WD40, every time.

Its always nearby, no special product to buy or store.
Its not an ep agent and not likely to change your torque settings much. I change one car twice a year... ice tires... and the torque settings seem unchanged after 6 months if you attempt a retorque. The other cars also unbolt easily, even after several years.

Since I have often kept cars 20 years in the salt belt - with no rusted, corroded or failed lug bolts or studs - my wife can change a flat on the road if needed - I suspect that this will work well for most people. And, its cheap!!

 

[Audi Junkie]

Not bad, but I dunno if it would last long-term if the owner were to just drive 5 years on one set of tires.

 

[MNgopher]

My short answer is I have never had a lug nut seize due to anything but improper installation over the years. My current fleet has 4 vehicles, representing 57 years of road service (oldest at 24 years) and 585,000 miles. None of the lug nuts look "rusty" and I've only ever had to replace one due to cross threading by an installer.

Thus, I choose not to use Anti-Seize on my lugs as it seems to be a solution looking for a problem to solve- even if there isn't one.

 

[unDummy]

The problem is with excess, like anything.
Excess grease, excess torque, or excess rotation intervals are why so many have problems.

Excess grease/oil: It can form an air tight seal between the sealed lug nut and the stud. As you tighten down the lug nut, you compress the air between it and the stud. It will self loosen as many underestimate the power of compressed air. I've seen it often enough. Good thing is that the quality of lug nuts and studs is horrible now and allows that air pocket to leak out. If you use grease/oil, only on the stud please, and wipe it down. This is where the evaporating spray can WD40-types are good enough. And with anti-seize, a very little goes a long way.

Excess torque: every garage monkey using an impact wrench, or diy flat tire changer stepping/jumping on the lug nut wrench = doh! Learn to tighten with a torque wrench.

Excess rotation interval: Like any fastener that is seeing all weather conditions and temperatures, it will self-weld-rust-seize nice and good over time. Rotate your tires regularly prevents it. No grease needed. Invest in a wire brush.

All issues with lugs is caused by fubar'ng without using some common sense.

 

[bullwinkle]

Not too sure about that-my '93 has had multiple stud thread failures even though it was a state-maintained truck, tires rotated twice a year (by me with a torque wrench)-threads have actually come right off the studs & nuts requiring replacement of both. A small amount of anti-seize solved the problem! Works wonders on the alloy wheel hub center holes, too.

 

[4ever4d]

I can honestly say i've only had one lug failure in my 30+ years of self maintanence,and that was early on,over torqued and twisted the stud off.I have never used any lube witch seems to be a split decision with the lube users on the subject.

 

[old farmer]

I work in an oil refinery and we use anti seize on fasteners that are holding high speed rotating equipment together all the time. And believe me, a large pump or compressor shaft is not something you would risk coming apart due to nuts and bolts loosening off. It's never happened with anti seize being used. Actually the friction of a dry fastener can cause you to have to use more torque to get it as tight as it ought to be.
As for the risk of overtorquing, that's true, read the labels on the antiseize cans, some will tell you to guard against overtorquing. That is because some folks might think because it goes on easier with the lube that it needs to be torqued higher or else it will come loose due the lube. That's not how it works. Just torque to spec and no higher. It doesn't take much to to the job. A little dab'll do ya.