Anti-drainback Valve Leakage

[howsthatferya]

Hi Everyone,

My question is how long do the anti-drainback valves hold oil in the upper galleries of the engine. I would have thought indefinitely, but the following experience made think otherwise.

I left my Nissan Armada sitting for 2 months outside in the Michigan winter, during which time I did not start it. At the the end of the two months before I started it, I checked the oil, and the level was higher than what it had been reading. If I remember correctly, it had been reading at a little less than the high mark, and after sitting, read 1/2 an inch above it. After running the engine for at least half an hour, I checked the oil, and it was back to its normal level. I didn't see evidence of any mixing of coolant and oil.

Initially, I thought condensation had formed and collected in the bottom of the pan raising the level of the oil. I have read about water in the bottom of oil pans of cars that have been left sitting for years that has been attributed to gradual condensation build up. But I don't think that in two months in the winter that much condensation would collect. After reading here, I realized that the antidrainback valve could have allowed oil that is in the upper galleries of the engine back into the pan.

I was using a Nissan OEM filter. Was this a defective filter or are anti-drainback valves expected to slowly leak?

 

[DEWFPO]

It depends on how good the ADV seals, the condition, weight and type of oil, ambient temperatures and the length of time sitting. My Toyota has an inverted oil filter, using OE oil filters or Amsoil, or Fram oil filters, they seem to hold some oil up until about 3-7 days. After that, I can tell it's drained by hold long the oil light stays on and length of valve clatter after start up.

DeWFPo

 

[howsthatferya]

It depends on how good the ADV seals, the condition, weight and type of oil, ambient temperatures and the length of time sitting. My Toyota has an inverted oil filter, using OE oil filters or Amsoil, or Fram oil filters, they seem to hold some oil up until about 3-7 days. After that, I can tell it's drained by hold long the oil light stays on and length of valve clatter after start up.

DeWFPo

Thank you for your reply. 3-7 days seems way suboptimal to me. If you don't use your car often there could be a lot of starts where there is a delay in oiling.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Thank you for your reply. 3-7 days seems way suboptimal to me. If you don't use your car often there could be a lot of starts where there is a delay in oiling.

It could also be slowly leaking oil out the center tube back to the sump. That's why some engines need an "anti-siphon" valve in the filter center tube ... it works like another ADBV.

I don't think the NIssan OEM filters have a silicone ADBV. Try a filter with a silicone ADBV and it might do better.

 

[howsthatferya]

It could also be slowly leaking oil out the center tube back to the sump. That's why some engines need an "anti-siphon" valve in the filter center tube ... it works like another ADBV.

I don't think the NIssan OEM filters have a silicone ADBV. Try a filter with a silicone ADBV and it might do better.

Thank you for bringing up anti-siphon valves. I was not aware of them. I called Mann+Hummel to ask if the M1-110a oil filters that I have been putting on my car have anti-siphon valves, and the person I spoke with, who has been working there 20 years, said that there was no such thing. I looked up diagrams, and I am, thanks to your comment, aware anti-siphon valves exist. I also called the Nissan dealer to ask if the OEM filters have anti-siphon valves. At the dealer they had not heard of anti-siphon valves. My understanding is that the anti-siphon valve is visible at the end of the center tube where the filter screws onto the engine. I may just go to the dealer and take a look in the OEM filter to see if it has an anti-siphon valve. I wouldn't want to be running a filter without one if that's what's on the OEM.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Thank you for bringing up anti-siphon valves. I was not aware of them. I called Mann+Hummel to ask if the M1-110a oil filters that I have been putting on my car have anti-siphon valves, and the person I spoke with, who has been working there 20 years, said that there was no such thing. I looked up diagrams, and I am, thanks to your comment, aware anti-siphon valves exist. I also called the Nissan dealer to ask if the OEM filters have anti-siphon valves. At the dealer they had not heard of anti-siphon valves. My understanding is that the anti-siphon valve is visible at the end of the center tube where the filter screws onto the engine. I may just go to the dealer and take a look in the OEM filter to see if it has an anti-siphon valve. I wouldn't want to be running a filter without one if that's what's on the OEM.

Filters with an anti-siphon valve in the center tube are pretty rare. I highly doubt any Nissan OEM filter has one.

 

[howsthatferya]

Filters with an anti-siphon valve in the center tube are pretty rare. I highly doubt any Nissan OEM filter has one.

Do you know of filters with an anti-siphon valve elsewhere?

 

[Chris142]

Our fj will have an empty filter if it sits a couple of days. Brand don't seem to matter.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Do you know of filters with an anti-siphon valve elsewhere?

Not off the top of my head. There have been some posted here a while back. If it was my vehicle, I'd try a filter with a silicone ADBV.

 

[howsthatferya]

Not off the top of my head. There have been some posted here a while back. If it was my vehicle, I'd try a filter with a silicone ADBV.

Thank you for the recommendation. I'll look for filters with a silicone ADBV.

 

[Sayjac]

.....I was using a Nissan OEM filter. Was this a defective filter or are anti-drainback valves expected to slowly leak?

You should read the linked thread, included are other linked anecdotes. I found the Nissan OEM OF made by Gonher with silicone adbv has a defective design. "If" your OEM filter was made by Gonher, imo it's quite possible this is the cause of the start up rattle. Or at the least a significant contributing factor.

Nissan 15208-65FOE Adbv Defect

This filter a dealer installed Gonher made oem off a Rogue. It was on ~4700 miles, ~6months. Had a wide pleat at seam pleat, but no tear(s). Biggest issue as topic noted, the adbv. Prior to opening the can I had noticed the Rogue had a start up rattle and very little if any oil came out of inlet...

bobistheoilguy.com

Here's another anecdote showing same issue, unrecognized there. Scroll to fifth pic from top showing adbv.

Nissan OEM filter CUT OPEN

This filter was off a 2008 Nissan Altima 2.5 engine. From member mobilaltima also. Mobil super syn 5w30 5,500 miles

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[howsthatferya]

You should read the linked thread, included are other linked anecdotes. I found the Nissan OEM OF made by Gonher with silicone adbv has a defective design. "If" your OEM filter was made by Gonher, imo it's quite possible this is the cause of the start up rattle. Or at the least a significant contributing factor.

Nissan 15208-65FOE Adbv Defect

This filter a dealer installed Gonher made oem off a Rogue. It was on ~4700 miles, ~6months. Had a wide pleat at seam pleat, but no tear(s). Biggest issue as topic noted, the adbv. Prior to opening the can I had noticed the Rogue had a start up rattle and very little if any oil came out of inlet...

bobistheoilguy.com

Here's another anecdote showing same issue, unrecognized there. Scroll to fifth pic from top showing adbv.

Nissan OEM filter CUT OPEN

This filter was off a 2008 Nissan Altima 2.5 engine. From member mobilaltima also. Mobil super syn 5w30 5,500 miles

bobistheoilguy.com

Wow, that defect is scary. I wonder how many times I started my car without any oil in the filter and galleries. A while ago, I started using Mobil 1 filters, but now I think I need to do more research to make sure something like this doesn't happen to me. Thank you for the pictures, and for making me aware.

 

[Sayjac]

Wow, that defect is scary. I wonder how many times I started my car without any oil in the filter and galleries. A while ago, I started using Mobil 1 filters, but now I think I need to do more research to make sure something like this doesn't happen to me. Thank you for the pictures, and for making me aware.

While the start up rattle can be an annoyance, to me the bigger issue here is that once the adbv slides down the flange/tube, there's no seal in the exposed area between the dirty and the clean side of oil flow. So it's an oil bypass area.

That said, in your case with vehicle sitting for 2 months in cold weather, the start up rattle would likely have been much more exaggerated, longer, than sitting for a day or two.

Bottom line though, this defect finding not a good look. Especially so for an OEM product.

 

[howsthatferya]

While the start up rattle can be an annoyance, to me the bigger issue here is that once the adbv slides down the flange/tube, there's no seal in the exposed area between the dirty and the clean side of oil flow. So it's an oil bypass area.

That said, in your case with vehicle sitting for 2 months in cold weather, the start up rattle would likely have been much more exaggerated, longer, than sitting for a day or two.

Bottom line though, this defect finding not a good look. Especially so for an OEM product.

That's an awful failure. Do you think there's any likelihood that disassembling the filter allowed for this the ADV to move?

 

[Silver]

I think you're assuming too much of the adv. Yes they keep oil from draining back through the filter but not necessarily out of all the engine passages.

 

[Sayjac]

......Do you think there's any likelihood that disassembling the filter allowed for this the ADV to move?

Nope, not at all. I've dissected dozens of filters since joining in 2008, posted most if not all. NEVER had an adbv end up in that position after being cut open. Add to it, the other three anecdotes posted on this forum with an identical result, and I'm convinced this is a design/manufacturing defect. There's no way that simply cutting the filter open causes the adbv to move off and down the outlet tube end (flange), and flip convex to the baseplate and inlet holes. I believe the explanation shown later in the defect link, accurately shows what happens to adbv at some point in the oci.

 

[howsthatferya]

I think you're assuming too much of the adv. Yes they keep oil from draining back through the filter but not necessarily out of all the engine passages.

I am just learning about this so maybe I am. I did, however, read on these forums that the ADBV was supposed to keep oil from draining from the engine galleries upstream of the filter. Maybe it's for more of a short term benefit like if you drive the car to the grocery store and then start it up to drive home.

Nope, not at all. I've dissected dozens of filters since joining in 2008, posted most if not all. NEVER had an adbv end up in that position after being cut open. Add to it, the other three anecdotes posted on this forum with an identical result, and I'm convinced this is a design/manufacturing defect. There's no way that simply cutting the filter open causes the adbv to move off and down the outlet tube end (flange), and flip convex to the baseplate and inlet holes. I believe the explanation shown later in the defect link, accurately shows what happens to adbv at some point in the oci.

Then that is a massive screw up from the Nissan filter manufacturer. I think Nissan should literally offer you a bounty for bringing it to their attention.

 

[Sayjac]

To be clear, I brought nothing to Nissan's attention, never claimed I had in any post. As noted in the link, I suspect had I they would have said I did it by cutting open can. Bottom line, there's lots of other filters out there, I now use another filter on the vehicle in link when I service that vehicle. Easy solution. Not looking for any reward, just passing along a finding for readers here. That simple.

 

[howsthatferya]

Does anyone else have an idea of how long it typically takes for oil to drain past the ADBV?

 

[haggler]

Just changed oil on a 2018 Toyota camry with a horizontal mounted filter. The toyota oem filter didn't hold much oil. Seems like their adbv isn't as good as silicone or other brands.