Answers to Common Fram Concerns by a Fram Engineer
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Scroll down a few posts and you find a very different report. Surely the difference isn't due to somebody being paid?
I have often cut filters apart to see how much dirt is in them... but I have never found one that was "failed" inside.
I generally use Fram - Walmart has heaps of them - but have no bias for or against. My engines seem like new at 300K miles so... not overly worried.
Should we mostly be looking for performance reviews, using industry accepted test methods?? Fram did great years ago in published tests comparing it to - then popular - media depth filters - looked like cotton. It seemed like the whole industry changed to paper filters at about that time, with greatly improved filtering ability.
And how did my 1959 Opel Rekord run 100K miles so easily with no oil filter at all??? My 1959 Ford engine, with the huge Ford FL1 filter was a worn and wheezing engine at the same miles!!
The filters rated at 96 percent first past filter efficiency seem pretty good.... remember the oil goes round and round every few seconds....
Does anybody know of a study relating filter efficiency to engine life?? COMMENTS ANYBODY!! The old depth media filters claimed to have very poor first pass efficiency - maybe only 50 percent - but the manufacturers (Hastings in particular) claimed that they kept the oil as clean or cleaner then those with high first pass efficiency.
My new Sienna uses replaceable elements, Toyota keeps sending me coupons for Toyota filters - 2 for 10 bucks carryout, cheaper than Fram at Walmart!!
I generally use Fram - Walmart has heaps of them - but have no bias for or against. My engines seem like new at 300K miles so... not overly worried.
Should we mostly be looking for performance reviews, using industry accepted test methods?? Fram did great years ago in published tests comparing it to - then popular - media depth filters - looked like cotton. It seemed like the whole industry changed to paper filters at about that time, with greatly improved filtering ability.
And how did my 1959 Opel Rekord run 100K miles so easily with no oil filter at all??? My 1959 Ford engine, with the huge Ford FL1 filter was a worn and wheezing engine at the same miles!!
The filters rated at 96 percent first past filter efficiency seem pretty good.... remember the oil goes round and round every few seconds....
Does anybody know of a study relating filter efficiency to engine life?? COMMENTS ANYBODY!! The old depth media filters claimed to have very poor first pass efficiency - maybe only 50 percent - but the manufacturers (Hastings in particular) claimed that they kept the oil as clean or cleaner then those with high first pass efficiency.
My new Sienna uses replaceable elements, Toyota keeps sending me coupons for Toyota filters - 2 for 10 bucks carryout, cheaper than Fram at Walmart!!
Facts, hard data on performance, testing??? Let's stick to the easy stuff like what the end caps are made of and how much media.
The Tough Guard is stated to have 99% efficiency, while the higher quality Extended Guard has only 97%. Now, that is a huge difference when viewed from the perspective of how much dirt at the reference micron level gets through. The ratio of difference would be three parts per hundred for the Extended Guard versus 0ne part per hundred for the Tough Guard. The Extended Guard lets through 300 percent more contaminant than the said-to-be-better Tough Guard. Now, I suspect the actual situation is not as I have stated. Possibilities include 1) different reference micron sizes; different filtering quality after initial dirt loading, other differences that I may not be aware of. Can you explain the true facts Fram Technical Services, so that I can become a better informed filter buyer? Thank you.
Originally Posted By: fsskier
Originally Posted By: labman
Facts, hard data on performance, testing??? Let's stick to the easy stuff like what the end caps are made of and how much media.
Hah, you got it!!! Never substitute evidence when prejudice is preferred!!
+1
Originally Posted By: labman
Facts, hard data on performance, testing??? Let's stick to the easy stuff like what the end caps are made of and how much media.
Hah, you got it!!! Never substitute evidence when prejudice is preferred!!
+1
Fsskier asked "Does anybody know of a study relating filter efficiency to engine life?? The old depth media filters claimed to have very poor first pass efficiency - maybe only 50 percent - but the manufacturers (Hastings in particular) claimed that they kept the oil as clean or cleaner then those with high first pass efficiency."
Response: The old depth filters proved inferior in wear protection to full flow filters of higher micron ratings. Conjectures why included allegations of channeling. Sorry that I cannot recall the specific references on this.
Studies listed here relating filter efficiency to engine life are from old files I have. Newer and better studies must exist. Try SAE papers "902124 Engine Component Wear Rate on Diesels Equipped with an Oil Cleaning Cartridge. 981368 Doubling Oil Drain Intervals -- The Reality of Centrifugal Bypass Filtration. 710813 Lube Oil Filtration Effect on Diesel Engine Wear. 881825 Correlating Lube Oil Filtration Efficiencies with Engine Wear. 790089 Diesel Engine Wear with Spin-On By-Pass Lube Oil Filters. 780958 Experiences with Extended Oil Drain Intervals in Diesel Truck Engines. 850549 Engine Oil Filter Performance with Synthetic and Mineral Oils. 852125 Improving Engine Durability via Filters and Lubricants. 860547 By-Pass Oil Filtration 881824 Lubricating Oil Condition Monitoring Through Particle Size Analysis. 881827 Review of Lubricant Contamination and Diesel Engine Wear. 902238 Influence of Lube Oil Filter Performance on Engine Wear in City Buses. 912339 Investigation Into Extending Diesel Engine Oil Drain Performance (Part 1) --Oil Drain Interval Extension by Increasing Efficiency of Filtering Soot in Lubricating Oil. 920027 Application of High Efficiency Oil Filtration to Heavy Duty Diesel Bus Engines. 930017 Optimizing Lubricating Oil Filtration Systems for Bus Engines. 930996 Comparison Between Different Bypass Lubricating Oil Cleaning Systems. 952556 Correlating Engine Wear with Filter Multipass Testing. 952557 Total Filtration: The Influence of Filter Selection on Engine Wear, Emissions, and Performance. 952558 The Classification of Lubricating Oil Contaminants and Their Effect on Wear in Diesel Engines as Measured by Surface Layer Activation. 970551 Protecting Engines and the Environment -- A Comparison of Oil Filter Alternatives. 970552 Contamination Sensitivity of Automotive Components. 972957 A New Method for Combination Full-Flow and Bypass Filtration: Venturi Combo. (Not SAE paper: Volume 41 (1998) Tribology Transactions Abrasive Wear of Locomotive Diesel Engines and Contaminant Control. SAE 991218 Diesel Lube Oil Conditioning -- The Systems Approach. 991525 The Pivotal Role of Crankcase Oil in Preventing Soot Wear and Extending Filter Life in Low Emission Diesel Engines. 100916 Development of New Filter-Element for Oil Filter. 100867 Automatic Transmission Hydraulic System Cleanliness -- The Effects of Operating Conditions, Measurement Techniques and High Efficiency Filters.
Response: The old depth filters proved inferior in wear protection to full flow filters of higher micron ratings. Conjectures why included allegations of channeling. Sorry that I cannot recall the specific references on this.
Studies listed here relating filter efficiency to engine life are from old files I have. Newer and better studies must exist. Try SAE papers "902124 Engine Component Wear Rate on Diesels Equipped with an Oil Cleaning Cartridge. 981368 Doubling Oil Drain Intervals -- The Reality of Centrifugal Bypass Filtration. 710813 Lube Oil Filtration Effect on Diesel Engine Wear. 881825 Correlating Lube Oil Filtration Efficiencies with Engine Wear. 790089 Diesel Engine Wear with Spin-On By-Pass Lube Oil Filters. 780958 Experiences with Extended Oil Drain Intervals in Diesel Truck Engines. 850549 Engine Oil Filter Performance with Synthetic and Mineral Oils. 852125 Improving Engine Durability via Filters and Lubricants. 860547 By-Pass Oil Filtration 881824 Lubricating Oil Condition Monitoring Through Particle Size Analysis. 881827 Review of Lubricant Contamination and Diesel Engine Wear. 902238 Influence of Lube Oil Filter Performance on Engine Wear in City Buses. 912339 Investigation Into Extending Diesel Engine Oil Drain Performance (Part 1) --Oil Drain Interval Extension by Increasing Efficiency of Filtering Soot in Lubricating Oil. 920027 Application of High Efficiency Oil Filtration to Heavy Duty Diesel Bus Engines. 930017 Optimizing Lubricating Oil Filtration Systems for Bus Engines. 930996 Comparison Between Different Bypass Lubricating Oil Cleaning Systems. 952556 Correlating Engine Wear with Filter Multipass Testing. 952557 Total Filtration: The Influence of Filter Selection on Engine Wear, Emissions, and Performance. 952558 The Classification of Lubricating Oil Contaminants and Their Effect on Wear in Diesel Engines as Measured by Surface Layer Activation. 970551 Protecting Engines and the Environment -- A Comparison of Oil Filter Alternatives. 970552 Contamination Sensitivity of Automotive Components. 972957 A New Method for Combination Full-Flow and Bypass Filtration: Venturi Combo. (Not SAE paper: Volume 41 (1998) Tribology Transactions Abrasive Wear of Locomotive Diesel Engines and Contaminant Control. SAE 991218 Diesel Lube Oil Conditioning -- The Systems Approach. 991525 The Pivotal Role of Crankcase Oil in Preventing Soot Wear and Extending Filter Life in Low Emission Diesel Engines. 100916 Development of New Filter-Element for Oil Filter. 100867 Automatic Transmission Hydraulic System Cleanliness -- The Effects of Operating Conditions, Measurement Techniques and High Efficiency Filters.
Fsskier also asked "how did my 1959 Opel Rekord run 100K miles so easily with no oil filter at all??? My 1959 Ford engine, with the huge Ford FL1 filter was a worn and wheezing engine at the same miles!" Possible conjectures include these variables: 1) cylinder block hardness. 2. Component material and quality. 3. Prevailing contaminant levels entering them engine air intake. 4. Air filtration quality. 5. Air intake location. 6. Water temperature levels. 7. Coolant deficiencies, including variables from one cylinder to another. 8. smoothness and precision of mating moving parts. 9. Valve guide wear (affects oil pass-through). Presence or absence of valve stem oil seals, plus longevity of seals if present. Engine thermostat: affects speed of engine warmup--a factor in engine wear. I welcome further contributions.
Ask, and you shall receive...... Looks like I need to hit the U-Iowa engineering library again, a couple of these studies look interesting . A lot of diesel stuff in there also, I suspect diesel filtration improvements and results are quite a bit different than gasoline.
59 Opel Vs 59 Ford: The Opel died due to extreme front fender rust.... the headlights/eyebrows in the 59 ford rusted out until the headlights tip over... So never tore down either motor.
The Opel (no filter of any kind) did have dirt stack up between the valve springs, but still ran perfect at 100k.
I often wondered what the bearings looked like, tech articles at the time indicated that the bearings would have lots of pits and stuff in them. Still, in-line engines tend to have nice wide rod bearings - unlike the compromised space in V engines - so maybe they get by.
59 Ford: Actually, two of them, mine and wifes, inherited from parents: 223 ci 6 cyl needed second valve job and burned some oil at 100K.
59 Ford v8 312. shot, shot, shot at 100k. Burned oil, leaked oil had huge blowby, was ready for the dump.
59 Opel: 90 Ci, 54 hp, smooth, quiet, burned no oil, ran like top at 100 k, NO OIL FILTER AT ALL
Go Figure!!
59 Opel Vs 59 Ford: The Opel died due to extreme front fender rust.... the headlights/eyebrows in the 59 ford rusted out until the headlights tip over... So never tore down either motor.
The Opel (no filter of any kind) did have dirt stack up between the valve springs, but still ran perfect at 100k.
I often wondered what the bearings looked like, tech articles at the time indicated that the bearings would have lots of pits and stuff in them. Still, in-line engines tend to have nice wide rod bearings - unlike the compromised space in V engines - so maybe they get by.
59 Ford: Actually, two of them, mine and wifes, inherited from parents: 223 ci 6 cyl needed second valve job and burned some oil at 100K.
59 Ford v8 312. shot, shot, shot at 100k. Burned oil, leaked oil had huge blowby, was ready for the dump.
59 Opel: 90 Ci, 54 hp, smooth, quiet, burned no oil, ran like top at 100 k, NO OIL FILTER AT ALL
Go Figure!!
The old air-cooled VW Beetles typically made 100K miles when well maintained with no filter, too.
A lot of factors go into engine life as marvinlee points out.
Ford apparently did testing in the '50s that indicated a huge (doubling) improvement in wear with a full-flow filter as opposed to no filter, but I have no details at this time.
I figure a good filter increases your chances for high mileage on anything, and I actually put a filter set-up on a VW Bus that had none.
So far it appears to be doing a good job cleaning up the sludge on the sump, but since I had a broken component producing metal shavings that was replaced at the same time as the filter was installed, that's not a fair test.
Still, I tore it down after some 10K miles with the filters (nothing special in efficiency) and the sump area was spotless.
Made me feel good anyway.
A lot of factors go into engine life as marvinlee points out.
Ford apparently did testing in the '50s that indicated a huge (doubling) improvement in wear with a full-flow filter as opposed to no filter, but I have no details at this time.
I figure a good filter increases your chances for high mileage on anything, and I actually put a filter set-up on a VW Bus that had none.
So far it appears to be doing a good job cleaning up the sludge on the sump, but since I had a broken component producing metal shavings that was replaced at the same time as the filter was installed, that's not a fair test.
Still, I tore it down after some 10K miles with the filters (nothing special in efficiency) and the sump area was spotless.
Made me feel good anyway.
I have no problem with "cardboard" or "engineered media" end caps, but when they don't cover the center hole, therefore not sealing, I have a problem.
The biggest problem I see with his "answers" is that there is no such thing as an efficiency of any percentage without the microns or the ASTM standard that can be checked.
As for the "high mileage", there is a point where additives can be depleted by blow-by, but from more by idling, warming up engines, and short trips. I suppose worn rings in these conditions could allow more raw fuel into the oil. Big rigs can extend oil changes with the Endurance line from Donaldson, where the synthetic filter is aided by some additive replacement.
But the US gov't has proven with taxpayer $$$$ that no matter what filter or rejuvenation system you install, oil will go bad.
I didn't same the links, but the studies are on line.
The biggest problem I see with his "answers" is that there is no such thing as an efficiency of any percentage without the microns or the ASTM standard that can be checked.
As for the "high mileage", there is a point where additives can be depleted by blow-by, but from more by idling, warming up engines, and short trips. I suppose worn rings in these conditions could allow more raw fuel into the oil. Big rigs can extend oil changes with the Endurance line from Donaldson, where the synthetic filter is aided by some additive replacement.
But the US gov't has proven with taxpayer $$$$ that no matter what filter or rejuvenation system you install, oil will go bad.
I didn't same the links, but the studies are on line.
Originally Posted By: widman
I have no problem with "cardboard" or "engineered media" end caps, but when they don't cover the center hole, therefore not sealing, I have a problem.
Thats the thing
Originally Posted By: widman
The biggest problem I see with his "answers" is that there is no such thing as an efficiency of any percentage without the microns or the ASTM standard that can be checked.
Bingo again
Originally Posted By: widman
As for the "high mileage", there is a point where additives can be depleted by blow-by, but from more by idling, warming up engines, and short trips. I suppose worn rings in these conditions could allow more raw fuel into the oil....
I don't trust a goo-pack provided by Fram. I would rather use a high-mileage oil in the first place.
I have no problem with "cardboard" or "engineered media" end caps, but when they don't cover the center hole, therefore not sealing, I have a problem.
Thats the thing
Originally Posted By: widman
The biggest problem I see with his "answers" is that there is no such thing as an efficiency of any percentage without the microns or the ASTM standard that can be checked.
Bingo again
Originally Posted By: widman
As for the "high mileage", there is a point where additives can be depleted by blow-by, but from more by idling, warming up engines, and short trips. I suppose worn rings in these conditions could allow more raw fuel into the oil....
I don't trust a goo-pack provided by Fram. I would rather use a high-mileage oil in the first place.
Agreed, its hard to imagine that the "glue pack" would contain the best additives for every possible base oil.
Originally Posted By: widman
I have no problem with "cardboard" or "engineered media" end caps, but when they don't cover the center hole, therefore not sealing, I have a problem.
Am I mistaken, or was the picture taken showing "poor sealing" taken AFTER the center threaded section was pulled out??
That would seem to yield little evidence about how well it was sealed before the center tube was torn out.
Originally Posted By: widman
I have no problem with "cardboard" or "engineered media" end caps, but when they don't cover the center hole, therefore not sealing, I have a problem.
Am I mistaken, or was the picture taken showing "poor sealing" taken AFTER the center threaded section was pulled out??
That would seem to yield little evidence about how well it was sealed before the center tube was torn out.
..so if metal endcaps are superior, why doesn't my Mann cartridge filter for my Passat 2.0T (and my old Golf TDI) have metal end caps? They use a resin-imprenated paper end cap.
The Fram filter for my Passat is also made in Germany, and "looks" identical to the Mann filter
The Fram filter for my Passat is also made in Germany, and "looks" identical to the Mann filter
OEM-labeled filters are available for my car with both paper (Mann) and metal (Mahle) endcaps. I've never received a recommendation of one over the other, by anyone, ever. Both types, as long as they carry the BMW stamp, are equally regarded as the best available.
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
The Fram filter for my Passat is also made in Germany, and "looks" identical to the Mann filter
It probably IS the exact same filter.
On slow moving items , most filter manufacturers will "source out" to the oem's.
A freing of mine had a Lincoln with one of the modular v8's when they first came out.
He was buying the oem Motorcraft's and paying a fortune.
He bought a case of Baldwin's at a third of the price.
Opened up the BALDWIN box and.........MOTORCRAFT! LOLOLOL!
He got one helluva deal!
The Fram filter for my Passat is also made in Germany, and "looks" identical to the Mann filter
It probably IS the exact same filter.
On slow moving items , most filter manufacturers will "source out" to the oem's.
A freing of mine had a Lincoln with one of the modular v8's when they first came out.
He was buying the oem Motorcraft's and paying a fortune.
He bought a case of Baldwin's at a third of the price.
Opened up the BALDWIN box and.........MOTORCRAFT! LOLOLOL!
He got one helluva deal!
Originally Posted By: fsskier
Agreed, its hard to imagine that the "glue pack" would contain the best additives for every possible base oil.
Originally Posted By: widman
I have no problem with "cardboard" or "engineered media" end caps, but when they don't cover the center hole, therefore not sealing, I have a problem.
Am I mistaken, or was the picture taken showing "poor sealing" taken AFTER the center threaded section was pulled out??
That would seem to yield little evidence about how well it was sealed before the center tube was torn out.
The pictures I've posted, both of new and used Fram's, have shown a gap between the center tube and the cardboard. The valves end up resting on the perforated tube, not sealing the cardboard.
Agreed, its hard to imagine that the "glue pack" would contain the best additives for every possible base oil.
Originally Posted By: widman
I have no problem with "cardboard" or "engineered media" end caps, but when they don't cover the center hole, therefore not sealing, I have a problem.
Am I mistaken, or was the picture taken showing "poor sealing" taken AFTER the center threaded section was pulled out??
That would seem to yield little evidence about how well it was sealed before the center tube was torn out.
The pictures I've posted, both of new and used Fram's, have shown a gap between the center tube and the cardboard. The valves end up resting on the perforated tube, not sealing the cardboard.
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