I'd agree in principle. There is no question, none whatsoever, that quality matters. My Chevy Bolt example "seems" to indicate just that.
Even so, my point remains, EV's have a unique failure mode.
Another Tesla Model S Firecracker
- Thread starter Passport1
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Even so, my point remains, EV's have a unique failure mode.
As pandabear alluded the packaging is a good vector to resolve such issues. Unfortunately IMO the danger is from the stacked up voltages these things operate at. The higher voltages are what increases the risks in the form of massive instantaneous current flow. Wondering how the new 1000 hp EV chevy pickup batteries will do? The E and I required to move that thing when you floor it will be massive.
If voltage and current flow is the only issue then we probably can somehow package fuses into the battery pack. I think the current design don't leave a lot of space for fuses in between individual cells. That might change in the future as voltage and or current increase. The problem with more fuses is the reliability and space it uses though. Imagine blowing fuses regularly and the whole pack needs to be taken out to swap 1 of the 50 fuses inside a coolant tank, that won't be fun.
Let's be honest, right now EVs are all about increasing ranges and reduce prices, not designing worst case safety. This is like the early years of automotive and took decades to mature into what we have today. EVs will catch up but at least we are seeing some good achievement in some other department (i.e. performance and comfort) that cannot be easily achieved with gas engine.
Maybe if they can find out the minimum required flame retardant in coolant and compartmentalize a pack with internal wall that is also load bearing, then we can limit the flame propagation. If they eventually find out the problem with fire from the voltage path, they can design current path to go in one way only, with GFCI like breaker in between parallel paths. This is something not yet well studied and tested so it will take some years and real fires to figure out.
I'm not as optimistic EV issues will ever be resolved to the extent the past ICE issues have. Unless some new elements are discovered to play with from space exploration a battery is 99% the same battery it has always been. The tech stackup to effectively store and use electricity as safely as a chemical energy in a dumb container is too large a gap. It is a question of physics for safety and economics for production.
By 2030 they want 50% of all new vehicles to be EV I cant wait for my house insurance to skyrocket and the FD crying for more funding.
No need for a tax increase it was peaceful green protesters. LOL
No need for a tax increase it was peaceful green protesters. LOL
Tesla battery packs normally have fuses at every cell, rated at 6 A I think. But that's not going to help if a cell experiences a dendrite shorting through the separator resulting in a thermal runaway.
This is what I personally think is causing the issue with some LG Chem cells, a production shortcut which leaves a sharp metallic edge uncomfortably close to the separator such that a naturally forming dendrite may puncture it. This unique problem does not mean that all lithium-ion or EV technologies are destined for the dustbin. It's a single issue that can be easily fixed if the designers of that production process stop doing that one dumb thing.
I don't have the full story (who does?) but I think the manufacturers said they would try to get to 50% if they were given huge subsidies.
And not even full EV; hybrids are included.
Interestingly, Tesla was not invited to the meeting; all their cars are electric.
My concern is, what if they can't make it? Do they pay a fine, go belly up or what? Or is it just noise?
They lobby to get a loophole in there so the math works out. Maybe they can "trade" credit by using 3 hybrids for 1 EV credit. Eventually the only way EV will really replace gasoline is if the cost and incentive works out (tax would play a huge part), punishing manufacturers usually won't work too well.
Remember EV1?
It was 50% of all car sales to be 50% by 2030, which isn't quite the same as having 50% of cars on the road being EV. Doubt that will happen by 2030 unless the charging infrastructure is really built up and charging is easy, and the cost of buying and owning an EV is much less than an ICE vehicle.
There is another important point...
Europe and China are working seriously on EVs. If American companies can't get it together, it may be bad for them going forward.
In the meantime, Tesla is working on the Model 2 everyman's EV.
Get it in gear guys.
I saw that, why wouldn't Tesla be invited? Something isn't right with this whole deal.
Exactly. When I can charge up a car as easily, and as fast as I can my gas burners, and with as many charging stations as gas stations to go to, I might consider it. Until then, no thanks.
JHZR2
Staff member
The issue really is that “past performance is not indicative of future results”.
The batteries have a likelihood of becoming more dangerous with time and cycling, as opportunities arise for plating of metallic Li, as the electrolyte decomposes and gasses, pressure increases in the cells, impedance rises, etc.
Removing of margin as a “value added feature” only adds to the issue as the batteries are allowed to operate closer to the brink.
JHZR2
Staff member
Consumer electronics get obsoleted and taken out of use on a much faster timeline.
Almost every single iPhone we have, when it sat unused for a few years, expanded and cracked as the battery gassed.
charge and discharge rates on consumer electronics can also be much lower/slower and more benign. A phone discharging over a day or more, a laptop running at minimal load for hours, etc is different than high rate discharge for acceleration, or aggressive energy recapture.
Elon and Tesla were not invited to the meeting because the Tesla factories are not UAW Union Shops.
By the way, Tesla's have one of the best crash test results of any automaker. If EV;s are going to be catching on fire at least Tesla is trying to mitigate the possibility of that happening during a crash.
By the way, Tesla's have one of the best crash test results of any automaker. If EV;s are going to be catching on fire at least Tesla is trying to mitigate the possibility of that happening during a crash.
As @DwightFrye posted, Tesla factories are not union.
The Tesla Model 3 and Model Y are the most made in America cars. The Mustang Mach-E is made in Mexico. The Bolt is Korean, but final assembly is in America.
Gigafactory Austin will be the biggest car factory in the world will employ 10,000 workers at capacity.
As I posted before, the liquid part of any petroleum product does not burn. It must be vaporized in order to ignite. The problem is most petroleum fuels give off sufficient vapors at ambient or lower temperatures.
In the case of JP4 and turbine fuel, those temperatures start around +40 deg F and continue on upward from there. The additives mentioned "MAY" retard the vaporization effect in some cases, but there isn't anything you can add to stop it from burning totally.
Complete info is easy to find on the internet, search for "Autoignition Temperature".
That's fair, but would issues related to aging not be offset to some extent by improvements in technology? In other words, as the older units see increasing failure rates, is it possible that tomorrow's EVs will drive down the overall failure rate? Clearly the technology is still evolving, as we see new EVs experiencing problems, but surely that leads to lessons learned and subsequent improvements.
You aren't warming up to the the idea of an ev?Exactly. When I can charge up a car as easily, and as fast as I can my gas burners, and with as many charging stations as gas stations to go to, I might consider it. Until then, no thanks.IMO the EV is nowhere near ready for prime time.