Another "Taxi" Study: Relationship of Engine Bearing Wear and Oil Rheology 872128

Isn't taxi service pretty much ideal for an engine?




BTW, Ive driven a 4.3l Caprice - i would bet in taxi service they spent a good deal of time over 60% throttle - that are ... um ... not fast at all.
I think it would be pretty similar to a 4.6L crown vic taxi. Definitely not enough engine for doing stop and go traffic quickly!
 
I had aluminum bits in my filter from a timing chain tearing up my timing chain cover from a broken tensioner and the aluminum and iron only rose a small amount. ...
I'd interpret that to mean that although oil analysis might pick up wear of parts, it can't pick up pick up gross shredding of parts.
 
Right - large particles are outside the range it can measure...
I think about the user here with the tuned-to-the-moon Golf R (~500hp!) that posts UOAs with much higher Fe numbers than I'm used to seeing in UOAs on the VW turbo 4s of that type (even more mildly tuned ones that are tracked)...clearly more wear is going on in that engine to the extreme power density/use so the UOA is showing something!
 
I think about the user here with the tuned-to-the-moon Golf R (~500hp!) that posts UOAs with much higher Fe numbers than I'm used to seeing in UOAs on the VW turbo 4s of that type (even more mildly tuned ones that are tracked)...clearly more wear is going on in that engine to the extreme power density/use so the UOA is showing something!
Correct.

But if you can see the particle ...
 
I had aluminum bits in my filter from a timing chain tearing up my timing chain cover from a broken tensioner and the aluminum and iron only rose a small amount. Fortunatley with enough data it stuck out w/r to the long-term averages but it wasn't like it was substantially higher etc. like you may think!
And you had a noise, which, IIRC, is what caused you to go digging, no?
 
If you can see the particle the ICP will not.
User edhackett has made a few very good posts on the limitations of a spectrographic analysis, and notes what happens without using an acid digestion of the sample. I know you’ve seen some of them since HPL is mentioned.

The people that believe they can measure relative wear between oils using a spectrographic analysis with no controls are truly magical individuals.




 
Were you referring to this Zee… The conclusions to the post.
FCCBA9A9-22DC-4322-ABD5-F33C86952C21.png
 
Thank you for taking the effort to purchase and read through this study.

Also yes, I think your conclusion regarding the merit of UOA's in determining wear (it depends, somewhere between useless and non) is consistent with the consensus, though I will add that their use on here tends to be so varied in terms of lubricant selection, grade and operating profile that it skews it further toward the "useless" side.

As I've noted in several of these sorts of discussions now (and given credit to @Shannow for, since he was the first to share this here), per the Honda study, this 2.6cP minimum for HTHS is consistent with the safe lower limit for traditional bearing design (generally). Once you got much below that, wear increased and risk of damage increased. This is why wider bearings were pursued (by Honda) for engines that spec'd lower than an xW-20, and they also looked at using special coatings to improve durability.

I think there's a pretty valid takeaway regarding your own experiment with an engine that, like these GM 4.3L engines, spec'd a 5W-30. You've gone WAY below the 2.6cP HTHS and have visible metal in the filter. On top of that, your engine is MUCH higher power density and features forced induction as well as direct injection, which has a tendency to dilute the oil with fuel, decreasing viscosity further and negatively impacting the performance of the AW additives.
Nothing was mentioned about the viscosity of the oil at drain time.
Back in the day, the evaporation rate vs shear down rate was a tool to keep the oil in grade.
Now of course with Noak limits, not so much.

edit; The loaded rod bearing at low rpm is the top or rod end, at high rpm, it's the cap bearing that's highly loaded as the piston goes over tdc.

Edit #2 as to the above post by Bill _W; Reducing geometric distortions in the engine case and crank should allow for reduced bearing clearances. Yes or no?
 
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Were you referring to this Zee… The conclusions to the post.

fccba9a9-22dc-4322-abd5-f33c86952c21-jpg.136805
That stuff was all pretty much covered in the locked 0W-5 in a high HP turbo thread. As far as bullet #2, the PD oil pump still ensures that the bearings won't really "starve" of oil flow when larger bearing clearances are used if the oil pump is appropriately sized and in good health. One reason that "Hot Rod" engine builders typically installed a higher volume oil pump is to ensure adequate pressure and oil flow to looser clearanced bearings. As mentioned in the other thread, very tight bearing clearance in a hard used engine (race car style) is dangerous because the bearing temperature can go sky high and that will smoke them pretty quickly. Once bearing damage starts to happen and gets to a certain point, they will essentially just continue to eat themselves alive to failure (possible spin and rod throwing action).

Journal bearing protection (preventing bearing and journal from rubbing/wearing) still boils down to HTHS viscosity and the resulting hydrodynamic MOFT. Why run on edge (or way below it) when adding a little MOFT headroom is really easy to do. 🤷‍♂️
 
Edit #2 as to the above post by Bill _W; Reducing geometric distortions in the engine case and crank should allow for reduced bearing clearances. Yes or no?
Yes ... if there is all kind of deflections going on, then the journal and bearing wants to "bounce around" more. If the system is super stiff, then you don't need as much MOFT headroom to account for that erratic movement. If the system was sloppy, but with tighter clearances, that wouldn't be a good thing because there's less MOFT to mitigate the deflection movements between the bearing and journal from a non-ridged system.
 
Nothing was mentioned about the viscosity of the oil at drain time.
Back in the day, the evaporation rate vs shear down rate was a tool to keep the oil in grade.
Now of course with Noak limits, not so much.

edit; The loaded rod bearing at low rpm is the top or rod end, at high rpm, it's the cap bearing that's highly loaded as the piston goes over tdc.

Edit #2 as to the above post by Bill _W; Reducing geometric distortions in the engine case and crank should allow for reduced bearing clearances. Yes or no?
From what I understand the geometric distortions in a lemon shape of the bearing makes the bearing appear larger size and distributes the load on more bearing surface. That’s a good thing. Read the full link.

and https://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/d...al_eccentricity_for_high_performance_bearings
 
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^^^ Yes, the design details of journal bearings have an effect on the MOFT wedge inside of them, and their materials also play a role on how they handle wear when the MOFT goes to zero - there's another King Bearing article about that too and was posted somewhere not too long ago.
 
Yes ... if there is all kind of deflections going on, then the journal and bearing wants to "bounce around" more. If the system is super stiff, then you don't need as much MOFT headroom to account for that erratic movement. If the system was sloppy, but with tighter clearances, that wouldn't be a good thing because there's less MOFT to mitigate the deflection movements between the bearing and journal from a non-ridged system.
Like "an extra layer of protection" (Havoline sales on a thicker motorcycle oil) and "headroom" drives bitoger' crazy.

Could then, is lower viscosity grades of engine oil begotten to a modern engine design that is "stiff" in your word.
A little play on words like which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Count the begats. Did engine design give birth to 0W16 or was it the other way around?
 
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Like "an extra layer of protection" (Havoline sales on a thicker motorcycle oil) and "headroom" drives bitoger' crazy.

Could then, is lower viscosity grades of engine oil begotten to a modern engine design that is "stiff" in your word.
A little play on words like which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Count the begats. Did engine design give birth to 0W16 or was it the other way around?
The last thing you want is very thin oil in bearings with pretty large clearance, along with a not so stiff bottom end - then on top of that, lugging it heavily at low RPM. Even going with very thin oil in tighter bearings with a stiff bottom end there's no guarantee that the MOFT won't ever go to zero under all operating conditions and loads.

Thicker oil always gives more MOFT headroom in journal bearings, regardless of their clearance. It's a simple basic characteristic of journal bearing tribology.

1674454791491.jpg
 
The last thing you want is very thin oil in bearings with pretty large clearance, along with a not so stiff bottom end - then on top of that, lugging it heavily at low RPM. Even going with very thin oil in tighter bearings with a stiff bottom end there's no guarantee that the MOFT won't ever go to zero under all operating conditions and loads.

Thicker oil always gives more MOFT headroom in journal bearings, regardless of their clearance. It's a simple basic characteristic of journal bearing tribology.

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Another thought on that is; 9 and 10 speed automatics that result in less rpm drop between gears and keep the engine in its sweet spot.
Clutch engagement on manual transmissions is a learned skill to avoid lugging.
They say that a manual transmission is an anti-theft device for millennials.

Plain bearings are said to "self-pump" to some extent as long as there's an oil supply. (FB University)
Prime the system and it's good to go theory begat variable oil pumps.
 
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