Another Honda first oil change question!

[ToyotaNSaturn]

quote:

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Originally posted by dagmando:
This is a great site, but be careful not to confuse opinions with facts. The fact that Honda states there is a "break-in" period should be enough to tell you there must something to it for them to go through the trouble of printing it.

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I'm not confusing opinions or facts. Facts are that UOA's aren't tainted by political forces. Fact is that Honda shows a whole bunch of copper in the oil during the engine's first 10-20K of life. I don't care what Honda's marketing division says, the UOA's show only an average oil with above average moly.

I have a 3.5L V6 Honda in my car, I'm VERY glad to dump the factory fill early on with a high-moly oil. Using the UOA, we're able to dissect Honda's argument. If you want to keep it in your car, then by all means, do so! I just don't follow in line with what this manufacturer (or any manufacturer) states. In fact, I like running the SuperTech 5w-30 "full" synth in this engine. Castrol Syntec blend is next...

 

[2x]

quote:

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Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn:
Facts are that UOA's aren't tainted by political forces. [/QB]

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Can you please explain to me what the political forces are behind Honda's actions? I know why Ford does it - for CAFE. I would like to know why Honda does.

 

[John in the ATL]

Originally posted by thoots:
[QB]Which (get this!) is 10,000 miles or 1 year for "normal" usage (with the filter change at 20,000 miles or 1 year!!). Or, make it 5,000 miles / six months for the oil and 10,000 miles / one year for the filter, for "severe" usage.


thoots,

I used the 6 months/3,750 miles severe service for my wife's 2004 Odyssey. The key is which comes first time or distance. I changed the factory fill at 6 monhts and 3,200 miles. I used the Castrol GTX 10w-30 based on my climate and common sense for the summer months of Hotlanta.

Strangely, the engine seems to run smoother according to the wife.

I will run the Motorcraft 5w-20 in the winter months.

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

quote:

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Originally posted by 2x:

quote:

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Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn:
Facts are that UOA's aren't tainted by political forces.

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Can you please explain to me what the political forces are behind Honda's actions? I know why Ford does it - for CAFE. I would like to know why Honda does. [/QB]

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You raise a great question! My thinking is that telling a customer about a longer OCI, especially shouting about it as the customer drives off the lot, goes hand-in-hand with the perceived quality of the Honda product. This delclaration with the perception of quality translates into less $$$ spent on maintenance for the consumer. To me, it's 100% marketing. Funny thing is, I would think that most people will still change their oil every 3000 miles as it's sooo engrained in the public's brain.

 

[thoots]

Folks,

Hehehe, thought I should slide back in here after a couple of days.

Thanks for all of your thoughts -- gosh, lots of conflicting opinions. I still get the heebeejeebies thinking about having that initial oil grinding through the engine for so many miles, so I'll probably go with my instinct to indeed "get that crud OUT of there!"

But, trust me, I'll make sure I use something with PLENTY of moly!

Again, thanks for all of your thoughts!

thoots

 

[Hankrr]

Isn't an engine pretty much already broken-in by the first 1000 miles anyway? I don't know what's true but I've heard it said by 500 miles. At any rate it has to be long before the 10k or 7.5k oil change recomended in my Honda manuel.

And tell me why Honda lets the oil fiters go for 15K? They only change it at every OTHER oil change. At 5 bucks a piece or so that's just plain dumb.

No one will ever convince me that changing the oil to early will hurt anything. It could only help by getting all those damm break-in shavings and crap outta there.

 

[Bror Jace]

"Isn't an engine pretty much already broken-in by the first 1000 miles anyway?"

Some UOAs show elevated metals well past the 10,000 mile mark and I agree most with ToyotaNSaturn.

To bolster this argument, Blackstone Labs is now sending out an e-mail newsletter showing how extended drains in new vehicles can elevate wear. Most important to flush out the break-in particles!

My '03 Nissan's fuel economy picked up tremendously after having 15,000 miles on the clock AND being run in warm weather. It went from an average of 28.3 to about 31mpg in mixed driving.

--- Bror Jace

 

[satterfi]

I dumped the factory fill in wife’s 03 Civic at 1600 miles. I then ran Redline for 3,000 miles and dumped it. The next RL interval was 11k miles. I just sent off that sample so I'll post results next week.

Here’s the first two UOA’s.

03 Civic on Redline 10w40

 

[mountainhouse]

Hankrr: I think you'll find it varies by car. I'd be curious if there are different ways people can tell if an engine is broken in. My indication has always been an increase in gas mileage. Seems like in my Sienna, it happened sometime after 10K.

I think Honda does that oil filter recommendation to reduce "total cost of ownership" calculations. It's a big deal to say your model is cheaper to operate. If you listen to the dealer (who wants to make maint. $$) instead of the manufacturer, they want you to do oil and filter every 3K. My dealer charges $23 in the Expresslube for Honda 5w20 oil and filter. You're right...pretty silly not to change the filter... ESPECIALLY these new "mini filters" Honda is selling

[ June 04, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: mountainhouse ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hankrr:
Isn't an engine pretty much already broken-in by the first 1000 miles anyway?

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I'm not an engine builder by any means, but from what I've heard, the rings are fully seated on a brand new engine long before you ever take delivery of it.

 

[Patman]

FWIW, when I got my 2000 Civic (which was my daily driver at the time but is now my wife's car), I changed it's oil for the first time at 400 miles. At that time I put in 3L of Castrol GTX and 1L of Mobil 1. Then I switched completely to M1 at 2000 miles.

The engine consumes no oil, it's got 52k on it now.

 

[PaJohn]

Got my Audi S4 twin turbo 4 yrs ago. They said the same thing, "Don't change the oil until 7,500 miles". So I didn't, but I put htose miles on rather quickly and mostly highway, varying speeds as recommended. Switched to M1 at 7,500 miles. Have used mostly Amsoil 0W30 since. Now have 127k and it barely uses 1/2 qt between 5k changes. So it didn't seem to hurt my engine to leave the original oil in as recommended.

 

[leanintoit]

More info on Honda early oil changes.

OE oil fill analysis....Accord V6
MaxLife Engine Protector

 

[mf150]

Even though I am a Ford Owner X3, I have to cite with GM in saying that more research is needed.

Ford says no-problem up to 150,000 miles and maybe more, but I have gotten over 210,000 miles on my 4.6L 97 engine with 10W30 with *NO* loss of compression (as of January of this year).

Not flaming the reputation of Motorcraft 5W20, but just pointing out the fact that this is a new oil viscocity and it is the lightest viscocity ever seen for daily street use.

Ford and Honda are also in the business of selling cars. They won't sell as many in the future if they recommend an oil vscocity that protects engine longevity past 150,000 miles.

Just food for thought. The engineers are told what to have in mind when they design. Their employers are the car and truck manufacturers.

 

[thoots]

quote:

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Originally posted by leanintoit:
More info on Honda early oil changes.

OE oil fill analysis....Accord V6
MaxLife Engine Protector

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Hmmmm.... Interesting stuff!

I have decided to go ahead and dump the factory fill, which will happen in a couple of days. I should be around 1,700 miles then.

I've got my Honda "PCX" filter, and I'm going to go for Mobil 1 0W-20.

The MaxLife Engine Protector stuff sounds like a good idea, especially since it's quickly available. That ought to approximate the extra moly, etc. in the factory fill.

So, what do you folks think about this? Shall I go ahead and put in the MaxLife Engine Protector, or would you suggest just going with Mobil 1, and getting on with my life?

For what it's worth, I would expect to just move straight to 3,000-mile / 3 months intervals from here on out -- I usually just do it every three months, and the mileage is usually close enough. Yeah, and I use Mobil 1 -- I've been doing it for years with my other cars.

Bottom line, let's just get the crud out of there, and keep it from building up very much, to begin with. If I can just get past this infernal Honda "leave the factory fill in there for ten thousand miles" nonsense, I'll be happy!

Thanks again for your thoughts!

thoots

 

[jthorner]

Regarding Honda's always severe conditions requirement in Canada, Patman said:

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They do this because of the cold winter weather.

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I can buy this up to a point, but it doesn't completely follow. Why didn't Honda include Alaska, Maine, North Dakota, etc. in the always severe conditions recommendation? All of those states are north of Toronto, Ontario and Toronto has the largest population in Cananda. The blanket Canada statement seems very odd to me.

John

 

[Lumberg]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hankrr:
And tell me why Honda lets the oil fiters go for 15K? They only change it at every OTHER oil change. At 5 bucks a piece or so that's just plain dumb.

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Could be because filtering efficiency goes up the more particles are already caught in it. Thus you're not losing but even gaining efficiency.

However of course this may increase the chances of going into bypass. does anybody know what the bypass settings are in Honda folters?