Another FRAM Response

[jthorner]

What did you expect, the unvarnished truth?

Here is my version of a potential honest response:

"Fram uses cardboard because it is the cheapest way to manufacture the end caps and has proven to be good enough to allow us to gain market share and maximize profits. It might not be the most elegant solution, but it is very cheap to manufacture and usually works ok.

Very few engine failures have been proven to be our fault, so the lawyers tell us not to worry about liability concerns.

The number of end customers who care is vanishingly small.

As far as the X2, that is a lunatic fringe product priced accordingly and we couldn't make the glue stick to the wire mesh/cardboard interface very well ... so we spent the extra pennies per filter to use metal. We don't expect to sell many of these X2 filters, but the profit margin is over 70% and we sure are excited about that!"

 

[jeepzj]

quote:

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Originally posted by jthorner:
What did you expect, the unvarnished truth?

Here is my version of a potential honest response:

"Fram uses cardboard because it is the cheapest way to manufacture the end caps and has proven to be good enough to allow us to gain market share and maximize profits. It might not be the most elegant solution, but it is very cheap to manufacture and usually works ok.

Very few engine failures have been proven to be our fault, so the lawyers tell us not to worry about liability concerns.

The number of end customers who care is vanishingly small.

As far as the X2, that is a lunatic fringe product priced accordingly and we couldn't make the glue stick to the wire mesh/cardboard interface very well ... so we spent the extra pennies per filter to use metal. We don't expect to sell many of these X2 filters, but the profit margin is over 70% and we sure are excited about that!"

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LMAO! Now that's more like what they are really trying to say. Very well put. I will never buy a Fram oil filter ever again when I can buy a Motorcraft FL1-A for less than that of a Fram and much better build quality....and oh yea metal end caps

 

[slalom44]

I don't use Fram filters, but I don't think that anything that guy was saying is false. I've seen failed oil filters (not Fram), and I can see why he says that the glue is more important. I've seen independent oil filtration studies, and they show that their filtration efficiency is comparable to other filters - even better than some such as Pure One. And although the bypass valve is plastic, it makes more sense than the clicker-type used by other manufacturers.

Like you, I can't get past the obvious cheap appearance of the construction. But I'm an Engineer, and I can see those design guys at Fram sitting around a table asking themselves questions like;

• What does each component do?
• What are the extreme operating parameters that these components will see?
• How can we design these components less expensively, yet maintain performance and reliability within these operating parameters?
• Will this new design adversely affect performance?
• I wonder if I could meet a girl if I changed from a plaid flannel shirt to a checkered one? (J/K)

Fram realizes that the average Joe doesn't cut open their filter. They open the box, see a nice, shiny orange filter with an easy-to-grip end, and read all sorts of propoganda printed on the box saying how good it is.

If their filters didn't do their job, Fram would have been out of business a long time ago. You have to give them credit for taking the cost out of the materials and putting it into their pockets.

You have to admit - metal endcaps are overkill if cardboard ones do the job.

 

[dickwells]

Where/when was it stated that any fram filter is superior to a Pure1 in filtering capability?

 

[slalom44]

I didn't say that Fram is superior to Pure One. I said that its filtering efficiency was shown to be better.

http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?s=e187b565a170ce028abd9609bfd99aab&threadid=352127

 

[Bill Kapaun]

I won't use a FRAM again either, but it's because of their often non-functioning ADBV's.

What's next, paper filtration media?

 

[motorguy222]

Hey everyone

,my letter to FRAM is first, followed by their response.Here goes.

I used to use FRAM oil filters but have stopped because of build quality.While I prefer metal endcaps for the filters,if a good quality cardboard is used,a cardboard endcap filter may,may just be adequate(?).Also,sealing problems inside of the filter are an issue.The plastic parts that are used along with the metal springs and the cardboard ends just don't make sense,great glue or not.Another problem that I have with FRAM oil filters is the small inlet holes in the filter base.Are the holes small so that they restrict oil enough to keep the pressure low so that the filter internals will stay together? The inlet holes are just to small,larger holes would benefit the oil filters greatly.The holes cant flow as much oil as filters that have larger holes,which is all filters that I know of.Also,if cardboard end caps are of a great quality,why is the X-2 made using metal endcaps.The metal endcaps are the norm when it comes to the everyday plain off the shelf Champion Labs,Purolator and AC Delco filters.Champion and Purolator are usually cheaper than FRAM and of a better build.I just do not understand FRAM's reasoning behind the cheap internals of their filters.As large as FRAM is,your company could compete very well in price and quality as the other main filter companies(Purolator,AC Delco,Champion Labs).I would really like to use FRAM once again but the quality keeps scaring me away.I have read comments to others from FRAM regarding the build quality being great because of the glue and cardboard making a superior(?)seal etc.What I want is for you to tell me why I should by a $3.00 FRAM with its current quality over a $2.88 Purolator that is built better and stronger(metal endcaps in the base filter) .Even if things in both filters were the same(which they are not),why should I buy the more costly FRAM? I want this in plain simple language,no mumbo jumbo,just plain language as to why the FRAM is the better choice.


Thank you for the e-mail regarding of Fram oil filters. We welcome the opportunity to be of service.

Fram indeed uses a cardboard material in the construction of its oil filters. Fram filters meet the requirements of the original equipment filter designed for a specific engine. Our filter applications follow the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer for form, fit, and function. Fram filters follow internally targeted design guidelines to meet the functional requirements of a given filter. Fram filters are tested against SAE standards to ensure uniform product quality and performance. Material construction will vary between filter manufacturers. We welcome the opportunity to enlighten you on the subject of cardboard used in Fram end disk construction.

A common misunderstanding among our customers concerns the end disks in the oil filter. These disks hold the glue which keeps the pleated media formed into a rigid circular tube. The glue-to-media interface is also one of the sealing surfaces keeping dirty and filtered oil from mixing. One common myth is that only metal end disks can adequately seal and have enough strength in the hot oil environment. For this reason, Fram filters are criticized for having cardboard end disks. The issue is, the material doing the sealing is the adhesive, regardless of the material of the end disk. What matters is the strength of the adhesive, its proper curing, the thoroughness with which it can be applied to the disk, and its adhesion to the disk. By using cardboard end disks, Fram filter engineers are able to specify adhesives with excellent strength and sealing properties, and strong adhesion to the disk (intuitively, it is easy to make a strong glue bond with cardboard). Moreover, just as paper media itself is able to withstand the hot oil environment, so too is the end disk designed of fibers engineered to be strong and inert in hot oil. The thickness and strength of the adhesive also stiffens the end disk considerably.

How do Fram engineers test these end disks to know that they hold up on the job? Not only do they perform hot oil circulation tests on the filter element, but they also regularly cut open used filters to examine how well they have withstood the rigors of actual use on a vehicle. For over 38 years, Fram end disks have stood up to hot oil and their adhesives have sealed off the dirty oil.

Regarding the metal end caps used in the X2 series, the Fram X2 Extended Guard filter uses a filter media that includes a reinforced mesh screen for maximum pleat integrity, durability, and oil flow. The inclusion of the metal screen increased the glue tolerances or thickness required for proper adhesion to the end disk. The original X2 prototype development specified the cardboard end disk technology. However, the increased amount of adhesive required to join the cardboard end disk to the screened media resulted in prototypes that did not conform to design standards. We had no choice but to use a steel end disk with the X2 filter media to provide uniform Extended Guard oil filter construction.

We are unable to comment of the pricing of Fram filter versus competitor filters. Retails outlet pricing will vary from company to company as it is their channels that determine what final price they will offer the consumer.

We believe that FRAM filters are clearly the best filters available. Fram is committed to standing behind and endorsing it's products and filter recommendations listed in the current Fram application catalogs. As part of this commitment, if you should ever have reason to suspect or question the quality of a Fram filter, we encourage you to contact the Fram Product Evaluation Team toll free at 1-877-250-8361 for further assistance.

Thank you for choosing Fram filters.

Cordially,

Joslyn Summers
Catalog/Technical Service Representative
Catalog/Technical Service Department

I stiil did not get all of my questions answered,hole size was not even discussed.The reason for metal ends in the X-2 still doesnt make sense,a thin metal screen does not add that much to the thickness of the filtering material.Is it just me or is this just more of FRAM's garbage?

[ May 21, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: motorguy222 ]

 

[kev99sl]

This is one of the funniest phrases I've read in a long time: "cardboard end disk technology." (!!!) Hilarious ...

 

[rcy]

Here's another point to ponder. At some point in the past, FRAM's engineers/bean counters/management sat down and decided they would replace their metal end caps with cardboard ones. I'm assuming they came to the conclusion that cardboard would do the job just as well, and would be cheaper, thus making FRAM more money. I wonder, though, why most (if not all) other filter makers HAVE NOT COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION? Are FRAM's engineering/R&D department employees THAT much smarter than everyone else?

 

[Jason8691]

Maybe those other companies have a collective conscious and arent trying to sell the public an inferior product. Imagine the money they could make if they spent a few extra pennies and made a quality filter that all of us (and those we have told Fram sux) would buy.

 

[slalom44]

Originally posted by RCY:

quote:

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I wonder, though, why most (if not all) other filter makers HAVE NOT COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION? Are FRAM's engineering/R&D department employees THAT much smarter than everyone else?

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I think that's a good question. The other manufacturers may realize that guys like us cut open filters and would tell the world of their flimsy construction. Fram execs may have been willing to take that chance, knowing that the majority of consumers never come to automotive websites. If I were an exec for an oil filter manufacturer, I would have played it safe and stayed with metal endcaps.

I've talked to all sorts of people that know little if nothing about cars, and they've heard rumors that Fram filters are junk. This type of rumor has turned into a sort of urban legend, and there's no doubt in my mind that it has affected Fram sales.

 

[Bror Jace]

jthorner, right on!

Nice to see others who don't grab their ankles for the Orange Monster.

--- Bror Jace