Has there ever been a clear photo, film or digital, of any of this phenomena? If not then perhaps the laws of physics as we know them do not apply.
Analysis of the Nimitz UAP encounter
- Thread starter UncleDave
- Start date
MolaKule
Staff member
I am not disagreeing with your basic premise, but the answer is yes, it is physically possible, especially if the source of the lasers weren't not being specifically looked for at the time of this alleged incursion. Then if that is the case, where was this location of these lasers? Could those laser sources have possibly been located on Santa Catalina Island, or Santa Clemente Island, or on one of the ships? I don't really know but it seems plausible.
ZeeOSix said:
Again, yes, many of us are attempting to give answers according to the known laws of physics, but then the question has to be asked: If the current laws of physics (which is what we now have) are being violated or modified, then what new set of physical laws are there to explain this phenomenon?
One thing we do know is these observers are professionals at observing and reporting anything in their airspace. Do training sessions now carry live ordinance?
In my view, it is now time for the UAP task force to convene a group of scientists, including physicists, astrophysicists, optical scientists, meteorologists, and other related disciplines, and work with the military to identify/define these objects to determine if they pose security or aviation threats.
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If it really is advanced alien technology, I'd say that things about our physical world not currently known to mankind at this point in time may be possible and not fully understood. If it's real, and technology by Earthlings, then it's something so advanced that nobody can explain it ... it might as well be alien technology. If it's neither of those, then it's all an illusion that instuments, witnesses and experts can't explain.
And what about the objects that fighter pilots locked onto and tracked at high speeds (and videoed) for miles and miles in the air - were those syncronized multiple lasers from a fixed secret location? What kind of expense and expertise would be required to do that, and why even bother - just to pull off an elaborate hoax?
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All of the possibilities above are interesting brain teasers but it reminds me of a caveman trying to explain a jet fighter. To admit a possibility does not mean you believe the current explanation but to deny the possibility dooms you to the darkness.
MolaKule
Staff member
Again, the laser technology used and the coordination of those lasers would not be a problem.
True, many more questions and speculations arise with each potential solution.
Another potential, and admittedly speculative scenario, is that this was not a hoax at all. Recall that the SPY-1 radar had a software change before and after the day of the 2004 scenario. Was this upgrade meant to produce ghost targets in coordination with laser images to determine how our CG would react to these targets? The Link-16 System (inside the CEC) can upload and make modifications to software in real time as well; I know, I worked on it while at Boeing. Someone asked about the Link's latency, but its exact latency and that of the CEC is classified.
The one item that still gnaws at me in the report (and anyone correct me if I misunderstood the timeline) was that the second wing of F-18's were not able to radar lock but could follow the objects via their ATFLIR's. When laser's concentrate on a specific area, they can ionize the air enough to allow radar returns, but the caveat is they have to stay concentrated on a specific area long enough to do so. A moving laser target would not stay in position long enough to fully ionize the air for a sufficient radar return.
Lastly, if we cannot determine what happened using the current laws of physics, then we may not be able to determine what actually happened, until and if, we discover new laws.
However, the current laws of physics should be a good tool with which to start the investigation.
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It wouldn't?
Lets say they could find a way to project these ghosts.
Where would these emitters "hide" from radars and planes while they projected ?
Perhaps these devices did not actually break the laws of physics but do have a nearly limitless supply of power that somehow generates no heat signature that allows them to push the boundaries beyond anything we consider possible????
MolaKule
Staff member
No it wouldn't because of the advances in Laser technology.
In Townes (inventor of the Maser/Laser) original paper, he stated, "We called this general type of system the maser, an acronym for microwave amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. The idea has been successfully extended to such a variety of devices and frequencies [various wavelengths of photons] that it is probably well to generalize the name - perhaps to mean molecular amplification by stimulated emission of radiation."
The Laser radiation (packets of photons) produced need not be visible radiation (viewable light), nor would it be detected by radar. Radar cannot detect laser radiation directly because it operates in a different region of the ElectroMagnetic spectrum:
Electromagnetic spectrum | Definition, Diagram, & Uses
Electromagnetic spectrum, the entire distribution of electromagnetic radiation according to frequency or wavelength.
www.britannica.com
Secondly, if one is not looking for the sources, one would not necessarily find the sources.
I am not saying this is what happened, but simply showing how it 'could' happen in terms of current physics.
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No it wouldn't because of the advances in Laser technology.
In Townes (inventor of the Maser/Laser) original paper, he stated, "We called this general type of system the maser, an acronym for microwave amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. The idea has been successfully extended to such a variety of devices and frequencies [various wavelengths of photons] that it is probably well to generalize the name - perhaps to mean molecular amplification by stimulated emission of radiation."
The Laser radiation (packets of photons) produced need not be visible radiation (viewable light), nor would it be detected by radar. Radar cannot detect laser radiation directly because it operates in a different region of the ElectroMagnetic spectrum:
Electromagnetic spectrum | Definition, Diagram, & Uses
Electromagnetic spectrum, the entire distribution of electromagnetic radiation according to frequency or wavelength.
Secondly, if one is not looking for the sources, one would not necessarily find the sources.
I am not saying this is what happened, but simply showing how it 'could' happen in terms of current physics.
Laser/ Maser to project in such an intensity as to fool eyes, radar, and IR for miles (if that can even be done ) is going to require a fairly good sized emitter that moves around as well as a big power source large enough to simulate the dozens of objects they claimed to see, much less get chased by the fighter.
The spy1 will look for any that could even conceivably be a threat - it can track things like a periscope on the horizon and up to low earth orbit and hundreds of objects concurently. They have been used as course correctors for ground based interceptors for years.
I simply cant imagine a projection setup with enough power and intensity as to stay hidden - but hey ...no one really knows.
It feel like a real stretch - but so does interstellar visitors.
MolaKule
Staff member
UncleDave said:
Well, some of us know.
Some references on current Laser Technology:
Laser weapons get ready for the big time
New electro-optical weapons are increasing in power and lethality, and are ready for air, land, and sea deployment to defend against enemy threats like unmanned aircraft, rockets...
www.militaryaerospace.com
U.S. Navy Laser Weapon System Demonstration
The U.S. Navy successfully conducted a demonstration with the Laser Weapon System (LaWS) aboard Afloat Forward Staging Base (Interim) USS Ponce (AFSB(I) 15), shooting down an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) in the Persian Gulf on July 14, 2017.
Air Force Harnessing the Power of Directed Energy
The U.S. Air Force has an unprecedented power to direct energy in a way that serves, protects and champions freedom.
Terrawatt Pulsed Lasers are "where it's at:" (Note: A terrawatt is a trillion Watts, or 10^12 Watts of power. A femtosecond is 10^-15 second or a quadrillionth of a second).
The Army is preparing the warfighter for a future battlefield with rapidly modernizing militaries while new threats and gaps are emerging...The sheer amount of intensity in a terawatt pulse laser is able to cause a non-linear effect in air resulting in a self-focusing filament. These filaments propagate without diffraction, providing a potential solution to the negative impact turbulence has on beam quality when propagating a conventional CW laser system. Differences in lethality as well as propagation mechanisms makes USPL technology one of particular interest for numerous mission sets. Over the last two decades, femtosecond lasers have gone from requiring dedicated buildings at national laboratories to sitting on academic optics tables across the country. Pulse Peak Power: Threshold: 1 TW; Objective: 5 TW • Pulse Width: Threshold: 200 fs; Objective: 30 fs • Repetition Rate: Threshold: 20Hz; Objective: 50Hz . Beam Quality (M2): Threshold: 2.0, Objective 1.5.
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MolaKule
Staff member
I would estimate that three GPS coordinated 10kW cw lasers could accomplish it. But it need not be cw lasers as 25-50Hz pulsed lasers could easily do it with much less equivalent cw power.
For those interested, here is a presentation on pulsed lasers:
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How Would We Communicate with Alien Life? - with Carl Sagan
If you're like me and pray you're not... this fuzzy monochromatic Tic
Tac maneuvers more like a glitch in the software than ET in a alien craft.
Tac maneuvers more like a glitch in the software than ET in a alien craft.
MolaKule
Staff member
This is what I would term, APUA, or assumptions piled upon assumptions.
Would not an advanced civilization, if that is one of the main assumptions here, communicate not on a Base system of 2, but say a Base system of 7 or 11 or higher?
Formaldehyde? In view of its widespread use, toxicity, and volatility, formaldehyde poses a significant danger to human health and is known to be a human carcinogen. Wiki. I know what they were trying to convey, but...while it is a simple molecule of oxygen, carbon, and two hydrogen atoms, would not an advanced civilization might think, "These guys either play with or are composed of very toxic chemicals, or maybe they want to embalm us?" So on their list of planetary visits, they would probably write us off.
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Good question Mo... I wouldn't respond back to their beep beep unless they wanted us to send more Chuck Berry...
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Well, some of us know.
Some references on current Laser Technology:
Laser weapons get ready for the big time
New electro-optical weapons are increasing in power and lethality, and are ready for air, land, and sea deployment to defend against enemy threats like unmanned aircraft, rockets...
U.S. Navy Laser Weapon System Demonstration
The U.S. Navy successfully conducted a demonstration with the Laser Weapon System (LaWS) aboard Afloat Forward Staging Base (Interim) USS Ponce (AFSB(I) 15), shooting down an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) in the Persian Gulf on July 14, 2017.www.military.com
Air Force Harnessing the Power of Directed Energy
The U.S. Air Force has an unprecedented power to direct energy in a way that serves, protects and champions freedom.
Terrawatt Pulsed Lasers are "where it's at:" (Note: A terrawatt is a trillion Watts, or 10^12 Watts of power. A femtosecond is 10^-15 second or a quadrillionth of a second).
The Army is preparing the warfighter for a future battlefield with rapidly modernizing militaries while new threats and gaps are emerging...The sheer amount of intensity in a terawatt pulse laser is able to cause a non-linear effect in air resulting in a self-focusing filament. These filaments propagate without diffraction, providing a potential solution to the negative impact turbulence has on beam quality when propagating a conventional CW laser system. Differences in lethality as well as propagation mechanisms makes USPL technology one of particular interest for numerous mission sets. Over the last two decades, femtosecond lasers have gone from requiring dedicated buildings at national laboratories to sitting on academic optics tables across the country. Pulse Peak Power: Threshold: 1 TW; Objective: 5 TW • Pulse Width: Threshold: 200 fs; Objective: 30 fs • Repetition Rate: Threshold: 20Hz; Objective: 50Hz . Beam Quality (M2): Threshold: 2.0, Objective 1.5.
Oh Im aware we are testing quite powerful lasers - but that particular application is not one Ive ever heard anyone attempting.
For this to work two things at min need to be in play. It has to work - and stay hidden.
Being able to hide the emission piece of this from a carrier battle groups arial/ underwater and satellite assisted circle of discovery would be quite the "where's waldo feat".
Should this hypothesis that our best radar/ IR/ and trained pilots tech and people were fooled by laser/ maser "mirages" projected by invisible projectors then our entire global missile defense strategy completely falls apart - if the tech isnt ours.
My skepticism that this is whats happening is high, but its a theory.
MolaKule
Staff member
I think you misunderstood my original hypothesis, and people keep using the word 'hoax.'
My original Laser hypothesis was this: this whole scenario was a coordinated and a planned exercise. During this exercise no one was explicitly looking for or trying to detect any laser emissions, assuming it was lasers that were projecting those "Tic-Toc" images.
The other public and prevailing hypothesis was that many of the radar images were software generated, with the observed images being laser generated, again a coordinated effort and not a hoax.
Again, these are only hypotheses based upon current radar and laser technologies.
Hypothesis: Science - a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
Hypothesis: Philosophy - a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.
If the 2004 occurrence was not a coordinated effort, then we need to make some serious investigations using our current knowledge of physics.
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"... again a coordinated effort and not a hoax."
A coordinated effort could be a hoax, per the definition of a hoax (trying to make people believe something that it's not). If it was a coordinated hoax, then it must have been some super secret expensive program (by whom?), and why would such a program exist and be used just a few times just to see that the "reaction" of everyone would be.
A coordinated effort could be a hoax, per the definition of a hoax (trying to make people believe something that it's not). If it was a coordinated hoax, then it must have been some super secret expensive program (by whom?), and why would such a program exist and be used just a few times just to see that the "reaction" of everyone would be.
When underwater the subs can track it and did so passively.
In one doc it claims the objects were traveling 500kts at one point underwater.
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