An aviation crash that may be of interest

[Just a civilian pilot]

Our FAA at work. No powerlines or airport should co-exist. Who was there first ( the chicken or the egg )

Private strip.

FAA has no control over it.

 

[Surestick]

I see you live in Cold Lake.

Are you a RCAF pilot?

What flying experience do you have?

I would include “dumb” as having power lines on final with no markers on them whether or not people feel they should be easy to see.

No excuse for any pilot to not do a thorough review where they are flying to and hitting power lines but same for any power company that has them close to a runway , even if it’s a private, grass strip.

After almost 40 years flying, 25,000 hours, I also find that dumb. Really dumb.

Dumb or not, it doesn't mean the pilot isn't responsible which was my point to exhaustgasses post.
There are a lot of airports with issues, some more serious than others, it is the pilot's responsibility to account for them.

No, not RCAF.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Dumb or not, it doesn't mean the pilot isn't responsible which was my point to exhaustgasses post.
There are a lot of airports with issues, some more serious than others, it is the pilot's responsibility to account for them.

No, not RCAF.

You’re not qualified to determine whether or not any pilot is at fault, accident investigators are.

If most accidents are due to dumb mistakes, let’s make sure dumb stuff doesn’t exist to reduce the chances pilots make ” dumb mistakes “.

As far aviation safety goes, it’s all stakeholders responsibility to make sure safety is number one, not just the pilot.

It’s also a pilots job to complain about safety related issues whether or not it’s accepted practice.

Years ago I flew bigger jets to an airport that had short runways, non precession approaches, black hole approaches and NO PAPI lights.

All condoned, legal, but dumb In my mind.

It’s not considered a “ hazard “ as you put it but if a plane had an accident landing at night, I would not want to be the Captain, blame wise.

I told this company it’s dangerous and refused to do it at night . I would land on runway with the ILS or accept max tailwind on the only other runway with a non precision approach and PAPI but none of the others without PAPI.

3 months later, they had PAPI lights installed ( but had to get confirmation they were proper eye-wheel-height for bigger jets ).

Sorry, pilots get set up for failure at times and will get blamed if you don’t speak out.

I wouldn’t put up with any “ the pilots always responsible ” nonsense unless accident investigators say so and other groups do their part.

 

[Surestick]

You’re not qualified to determine whether or not any pilot is at fault, accident investigators are.

If most accidents are due to dumb mistakes, let’s make sure dumb stuff doesn’t exist to reduce the chances pilots make ” dumb mistakes “.

As far aviation safety goes, it’s all stakeholders responsibility to make sure safety is number one, not just the pilot.

It’s also a pilots job to complain about safety related issues whether or not it’s accepted practice.

Years ago I flew bigger jets to an airport that had short runways, non precession approaches, black hole approaches and NO PAPI lights.

All condoned, legal, but dumb In my mind.

It’s not considered a “ hazard “ as you put it but if a plane had an accident landing at night, I would not want to be the Captain, blame wise.

I told this company it’s dangerous and refused to do it at night . I would land on runway with the ILS or accept max tailwind on the only other runway with a non precision approach and PAPI but none of the others without PAPI.

3 months later, they had PAPI lights installed ( but had to get confirmation they were proper eye-wheel-height for bigger jets ).

Sorry, pilots get set up for failure at times and will get blamed if you don’t speak out.

I wouldn’t put up with any “ the pilots always responsible ” nonsense unless accident investigators say so and other groups do their part.

Are you an accident investigator?

Not trying to start an argument but you say I'm not qualified to determine responsibility, not being an investigator, then go on to talk about responsibility.

It looks like we pretty much agree though, as a pilot you are responsible for the decisions you make and one of those decisions is whether or not the flight is safe to make based on all the information you have available. Condition of the airport you are flying into and anything out of the ordinary for it are one of those pieces of info. If you don't feel the flight is safe to make then don't make it. If you choose to make it despite concerns you are responsible.
Had you made a flight into the airport you mention and had an accident because of a lack of approach slope guidance the NTSB report would have read: "Probable cause: Pilot's failure to maintain proper glide slope". If you were lucky you might be given the addendum: "A contributing factor was lack of approach slope guidance at the airport".

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Are you an accident investigator?

Not trying to start an argument but you say I'm not qualified to determine responsibility, not being an investigator, then go on to talk about responsibility.

It looks like we pretty much agree though, as a pilot you are responsible for the decisions you make and one of those decisions is whether or not the flight is safe to make based on all the information you have available. Condition of the airport you are flying into and anything out of the ordinary for it are one of those pieces of info. If you don't feel the flight is safe to make then don't make it. If you choose to make it despite concerns you are responsible.
Had you made a flight into the airport you mention and had an accident because of a lack of approach slope guidance the NTSB report would have read: "Probable cause: Pilot's failure to maintain proper glide slope". If you were lucky you might be given the addendum: "A contributing factor was lack of approach slope guidance at the airport".

I will answer your question about whether I am an accident investigator If you answer the question I asked you previously, what flying experience do you have?

Are you a commercial pilot or a private pilot because it’s relevant with regards to opinion the pilot is ALWAYS the one responsible for the decisions they make if an accident happens.

Let me respond anyways because I can tell you don’t have much experience.

If you’re a private pilot , you fly when you feel like flying. Nobody is going to pressure you.

If an airline has its pilots flying to an airport at night with no PAPI lights , it’s 101% legal.

That doesn’t mean it’s smart or safe.

Set up for failure.

I work for a good airline, they listened to my concerns ( I have a lot of experience ) and fixed the threat ( told the airport its unacceptable ).

Not all pilots fly for good airlines with a strong safety culture.

Flying a medium sized jet , at night, IMC with moderate rain to a relatively short runway served by a non precision approach ( and total black hole ) with no PAPI lights is setting someone up for failure but because it’s legal , the Pilot would be held responsible if they had an accident despite numerous aviation partners not doing their job properly if safety really is paramount.

A low experience pilot might not even know how potentially unsafe it is until the have an incident/accident.

As far as I am concerned ( my experience below ) , everyone in aviation ( all partners ….airports, ATC, regulatory authorities, airlines, pilots ) are responsible for safety and anyone who allows power lines close to an airport is also responsible ( or no PAPI lights ).

Whether or not there are “ contributing factors” , it will be the pilot getting blamed mostly and it goes on their record.

I have enough experience to see someone else’s problems causing problems for pilots but I won’t let them set me up for failure but many new/ low experienced pilots might not.

I see you live up in cold lake.

CF 18 base.

How long do you think the RCAF would put up with power lines too close to the runway or some other threat, not long.

Neither should anyone else.


25,000 hours,
11 companies.
High Arctic Captain experience flying 24 hours darkness to airports close to mountains.

 

[Surestick]

I will answer your question about whether I am an accident investigator If you answer the question I asked you previously, what flying experience do you have?

Are you a commercial pilot or a private pilot because it’s relevant with regards to opinion the pilot is ALWAYS the one responsible for the decisions they make if an accident happens.

Let me respond anyways because I can tell you don’t have much experience.

If you’re a private pilot , you fly when you feel like flying. Nobody is going to pressure you.

If an airline has its pilots flying to an airport at night with no PAPI lights , it’s 101% legal.

That doesn’t mean it’s smart or safe.

Set up for failure.

I work for a good airline, they listened to my concerns ( I have a lot of experience ) and fixed the threat ( told the airport its unacceptable ).

Not all pilots fly for good airlines with a strong safety culture.

Flying a medium sized jet , at night, IMC with moderate rain to a relatively short runway served by a non precision approach ( and total black hole ) with no PAPI lights is setting someone up for failure but because it’s legal , the Pilot would be held responsible if they had an accident despite numerous aviation partners not doing their job properly if safety really is paramount.

A low experience pilot might not even know how potentially unsafe it is until the have an incident/accident.

As far as I am concerned ( my experience below ) , everyone in aviation ( all partners ….airports, ATC, regulatory authorities, airlines, pilots ) are responsible for safety and anyone who allows power lines close to an airport is also responsible ( or no PAPI lights ).

Whether or not there are “ contributing factors” , it will be the pilot getting blamed mostly and it goes on their record.

I have enough experience to see someone else’s problems causing problems for pilots but I won’t let them set me up for failure but many new/ low experienced pilots might not.

I see you live up in cold lake.

CF 18 base.

How long do you think the RCAF would put up with power lines too close to the runway or some other threat, not long.

Neither should anyone else.


25,000 hours,
11 companies.
High Arctic Captain experience flying 24 hours darkness to airports close to mountains.

You wouldn't see something dangerous at the vast majority of big airports for the same reason as you wouldn't here in Cold Lake. There's more pressure/reasons to make flights in conditions where things like power lines close the the runway would be more dangerous.

The accident in question didn't happen at a big airport, it happened at a small private strip if I'm not mistaken? That means the need to make the flight wasn't one of national security or even on time performance. There are a lot of airports with safety issues for the unprepared, rising terrain after takeoff, hot and high, trees (or power lines) at the ends of the runway, sloped runways, etc. If we closed them all GA would take a huge hit.

How can you argue the pilot isn't responsible for knowing as much as they can about where they're landing? If that's not what you're saying I don't see your point. If, as a pilot, you decide to make a flight you think is unsafe for any reason (including that not doing so may cost you your job) that is your decision and your responsibility.

At the end of the day a pilot flew into power lines they should have known were there. That's not the fault of the power lines.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

You wouldn't see something dangerous at the vast majority of big airports for the same reason as you wouldn't here in Cold Lake. There's more pressure/reasons to make flights in conditions where things like power lines close the the runway would be more dangerous.

The accident in question didn't happen at a big airport, it happened at a small private strip if I'm not mistaken? That means the need to make the flight wasn't one of national security or even on time performance. There are a lot of airports with safety issues for the unprepared, rising terrain after takeoff, hot and high, trees (or power lines) at the ends of the runway, sloped runways, etc. If we closed them all GA would take a huge hit.

How can you argue the pilot isn't responsible for knowing as much as they can about where they're landing? If that's not what you're saying I don't see your point. If, as a pilot, you decide to make a flight you think is unsafe for any reason (including that not doing so may cost you your job) that is your decision and your responsibility.

At the end of the day a pilot flew into power lines they should have known were there. That's not the fault of the power lines.

How about this response, “how can I argue with someone who isn’t even a pilot”?

I knew you weren’t a pilot.