JetBlue A320 dual hydraulic failure.

[Number_35]

Careful about over or under-estimating anyone based solely on their training pedigree. I've met more than my fair share of healthcare clinicians who trained in foreign countries or US schools that are considered below average as far as training, who run circles around Harvard/Mass General trained clinicians, some of whom end up with a great training pedigree but they are average at best. You will inevitably have fantastic pilots who did not train in the armed forces with the only difference having nothing to do with ability, just their path in life. I have found this to be true of most professions.

I've often wondered if there are "magic bullet" litmus questions one can ask an applicant to determine whether they will be a good fit for a particular line of work. These might be a predictor than academic credentials.

In my former line of work, telecom engineering, I found the guys who worked on their cars and did their own home repairs and renos typically did better.

 

[Number_35]

No, I really disagree with this.

You underestimate how important the pilot and crew is in managing the complex systems. Further, you underestimate how important it is to have somebody actually “on scene” and not remote. There are things that you see, hear, and feel in an airplane that you cannot see, hear and feel at a workstation that is outside the airplane.

It’s a lot like somebody doing surgery via a teleconference or zoom call. It just doesn’t work - response time is too slow and communication and coordination don’t exist - you would severely degrade crew performance.

Which is probably fine for normal events, but in a non-normal situation, like this hydraulic failure, it simply wouldn’t work. The bean counters and engineers, love this idea, naturally.

But the professional pilots and flying public do not.

The most important safety equipment in any modern aircraft is two well rested, highly trained, fully qualified pilots on that flight deck working as an team.

All the engineering in the world cannot compensate for their absence.

I'll paraphrase something Wally Schirra, one of the original seven astronauts, said when asked whether the Mercury spacecraft actually needed a human pilot:

There was this fancy new aircraft that was piloted by computers. Partway over the Atlantic, a recording came on, and was played over the intercom for the passengers: "Congratulations! You are the first passengers on a fully automated aircraft. Because there are no human pilots, there is no chance of human error. With a machine, nothing can go wrong ... can go wrong ... can go wrong ..."​

​

Schirra had been a Navy pilot, and was the only astronaut to fly the first three generations of American spacecraft - Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo.

 

[edyvw]

59 in July, plan on going to 65 if my health is good enough to keep my medical ( so far no issues ).

When I do my final Airbus Airline flight, that’s the last flight I will ever do as tempting as it is to fly goats and chickens in the Congo ( Republic of Congo….former French colony……Democratic Republic of Congo former Belgium ….both French ).

Not sure what I will do when I retire.

Just back from a long day flying ( not the Congo…..down and back to Mexico ).

On a serious note, I have been working in the pilot community for more than 15 years, military, though, but come across civilians too, and it is a mixed bag with retirements. Some navigate it very well, mostly having focus and being busy. Some really cannot get over it. I would attribute more to life of constant learning, stress, being "on the go" than simply love for flying. That mandatory retirement takes breath out from a lot of them.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

On a serious note, I have been working in the pilot community for more than 15 years, military, though, but come across civilians too, and it is a mixed bag with retirements. Some navigate it very well, mostly having focus and being busy. Some really cannot get over it. I would attribute more to life of constant learning, stress, being "on the go" than simply love for flying. That mandatory retirement takes breath out from a lot of them.

I might have to start my own YouTube channel, or become a MOD on some other aviation website

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Planes with bathrooms are more forgiving.

What experience do you have to back up that statement?

When the B727 first entered service , with several “ bathrooms” ( called lavatories BTW ) on board, several deadly accidents occurred, caused by pilot error ( slick jet ).

Any aircraft will feel “ less forgiving” if the person ( wherever they learned to fly ) flying it has low experience , regardless whether it has “ bathrooms” on board or not.

The discussion about the in-flight break up of the V tail Bonanza ( no “ bathroom” on board ) on another thread involved a pilot with very low experience ( he just bought the aircraft a few months prior ).

The Boeing 727's Early Struggles With Excessive Descent Speeds & Sink Rates​

Pilots had trouble learning to fly the jet due to the aircraft's ability to descend fast.

simpleflying.com

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[Astro14]

Planes with bathrooms are more forgiving.

It depends with which airplanes you’re drawing a contrast.

Are they more forgiving than carrier-based airplanes? Yes and no. The carrier based airplanes are put through maneuvers that would tear the airplanes with bathrooms apart. They’re flown to a level of precision that the airplanes with bathrooms could never execute. Those airplanes can be unforgiving, but they are generally unforgiving at the extreme edges of the envelope. Places that an airliner will never go.

Any swept wing jet aircraft can be unforgiving when flown by an inexperienced pilot. They are intrinsically complex and require real expertise to fly well.

Perhaps you’re looking at the accident rate of the swept wing jet aircraft used to transport passengers, and assume they are “forgiving“ but they’re not actually forgiving. They are handled by very experienced pilots, who might make it “look easy”.

A V-tail bonanza is a very forgiving airplane, easy to fly, and yet inexperienced pilots get killed by it, so somehow journalists and others assume that the airplane itself was “unforgiving”. Not true.

Aviation itself is unforgiving.

It is unforgiving of inexperience, of neglect, of overconfidence, of poor skills, of poor training, of poor decision-making, and of poor planning.

It was unforgiving to JFK jr. for example, who flew a very forgiving, easy airplane in an environment in which he should not have been flying.

 

[edhackett]

I suspect that like wpod, my experience has been that when I have to pee, planes with lavatories are much more forgiving.

Wpod flew that one right over the pilots heads.

Ed

It depends with which airplanes you’re drawing a contrast.

What experience do you have to back up that statement?

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I suspect that like wpod, my experience has been that when I have to pee, planes with lavatories are much more forgiving.

Wpod flew that one right over the pilots heads.

Ed

Exactly, just like with the Concorde ( several "bathrooms" ).

Very forgiving mach 2.0 CRUISE jet. Nothing complicated, no flaps.

Hopefully, when the fuselage stretched due to heat, the washrooms still provided privacy.

 

[Astro14]

Exactly, just like with the Concorde ( several "bathrooms" ).

Very forgiving mach 2.0 CRUISE jet. Nothing complicated, no flaps.

Hopefully, when the fuselage stretched due to heat, the washrooms still provided privacy.

Forgiving in some ways, but having spoken with the chief pilot for that aircraft at British Airways, with whom I went to War College in the UK, the training on that airplane was about triple the length of the training on any other platform.

The delta wing is very forgiving in terms of stall, in that it doesn’t really stall. However, you can get very far behind the power curve without any traditional indication of a stall - so far, in fact, that it is impossible to power out, even in full “reheat”.

Flying that aircraft well requires a great degree of precision, it is much less forgiving than a 757 for example. Best climb speed and maximum speed are only a few knots apart. Approach speed is on the back side of the power curve - where it takes more power to go slower than it does to go faster. It has negative speed stability on final.

All other airliners are speed stable on final. They fly on the front side of the power curve.

Very different beast, that one. Once you master flying a delta wing, you learn to love it, but there is a reason that BA gave their pilots three times the training hours in that airplane than they did in others, like the 747.

 

[wwillson]

Planes with bathrooms are more forgiving.

They are certainly not more forgiving of some of the errors that pilots make. VFR flight continued into IMC, distracted pilots who stall and spin, a series of small mistakes that add up to a big deal, etc. I can promise you one thing, the pilots in those small airplanes that make those mistakes are just as dead with or without a bathroom.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Forgiving in some ways, but having spoken with the chief pilot for that aircraft at British Airways, with whom I went to War College in the UK, the training on that airplane was about triple the length of the training on any other platform.

The delta wing is very forgiving in terms of stall, in that it doesn’t really stall. However, you can get very far behind the power curve without any traditional indication of a stall - so far, in fact, that it is impossible to power out, even in full “reheat”.

Flying that aircraft well requires a great degree of precision, it is much less forgiving than a 757 for example. Best climb speed and maximum speed are only a few knots apart. Approach speed is on the back side of the power curve - where it takes more power to go slower than it does to go faster. It has negative speed stability on final.

All other airliners are speed stable on final. They fly on the front side of the power curve.

Very different beast, that one. Once you master flying a delta wing, you learn to love it, but there is a reason that BA gave their pilots three times the training hours in that airplane than they did in others, like the 747.

I was being , very , sarcastic.

It was a VERY complex, demanding aircraft to fly, and operation to manage.

6 month coarse , which was far longer than any other civilian aircraft.

The pilots ( and flight engineers…..very complex for flight engineers also ) who flew it were well above average ( British Airways anyways ) I am sure. Weak pilots would wash out.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

It depends with which airplanes you’re drawing a contrast.

Are they more forgiving than carrier-based airplanes? Yes and no. The carrier based airplanes are put through maneuvers that would tear the airplanes with bathrooms apart. They’re flown to a level of precision that the airplanes with bathrooms could never execute. Those airplanes can be unforgiving, but they are generally unforgiving at the extreme edges of the envelope. Places that an airliner will never go.

Any swept wing jet aircraft can be unforgiving when flown by an inexperienced pilot. They are intrinsically complex and require real expertise to fly well.

Perhaps you’re looking at the accident rate of the swept wing jet aircraft used to transport passengers, and assume they are “forgiving“ but they’re not actually forgiving. They are handled by very experienced pilots, who might make it “look easy”.

A V-tail bonanza is a very forgiving airplane, easy to fly, and yet inexperienced pilots get killed by it, so somehow journalists and others assume that the airplane itself was “unforgiving”. Not true.

Aviation itself is unforgiving.

It is unforgiving of inexperience, of neglect, of overconfidence, of poor skills, of poor training, of poor decision-making, and of poor planning.

It was unforgiving to JFK jr. for example, who flew a very forgiving, easy airplane in an environment in which he should not have been flying.

Totally agree, aviation can be very unforgiving.

The highest time F14 ( far more carrier landings than most ) pilot was killed flying one of the most forgiving aircraft I can imagine.

Over confidence was a factor in this pilot error crash also.

Even the most forgiving aircraft is deadly when pilots skip doing basic things like doing a proper preflight check and before take off check ( that wasn’t a mistake ).

I didn’t post this to poke a stick in the eye of the U.S Navy, I posted it as a reminder just how unforgiving aviation can be, regardless what type of aircraft pilots fly if they make mistakes or are overconfident feeling ….” It’s a simple, forgiving aircraft “. I bet, even though he knew the F14 well , he wouldn’t skip any procedures in an unforgiving aircraft like the F14.

That applies to any pilot, flying any aircraft.

Final report on fatal Snodgrass accident released

The NTSB has released its findings in the July 24, 2021, crash that killed airshow performer and former U.S. Navy fighter pilot Dale "Snort" Snodgrass.

www.aopa.org

 

[Astro14]

I was being , very , sarcastic.

It was a VERY complex, demanding aircraft to fly, and operation to manage.

6 month coarse , which was far longer than any other civilian aircraft.

I apologize for missing that. Yes, really enjoyed talking with Andy about the airplane, and getting a pilot's perspective on its complexity.

 

[Astro14]

Totally agree, aviation can be very unforgiving.

The highest time F14 ( far more carrier landings than most ) pilot was killed flying one of the most forgiving aircraft I can imagine.

Over confidence was a factor in this pilot error crash also.

Even the most forgiving aircraft is deadly when pilots skip doing basic things like doing a proper preflight check and before take off check ( that wasn’t a mistake ).

I didn’t post this to poke a stick in the eye of the U.S Navy, I posted it as a reminder just how unforgiving aviation can be, regardless what type of aircraft pilots fly if they make mistakes or are overconfident feeling ….” It’s a simple, forgiving aircraft “. I bet, even though he knew the F14 well , he wouldn’t skip any procedures in an unforgiving aircraft like the F14.

That applies to any pilot, flying any aircraft.

Final report on fatal Snodgrass accident released

The NTSB has released its findings in the July 24, 2021, crash that killed airshow performer and former U.S. Navy fighter pilot Dale "Snort" Snodgrass.

www.aopa.org

I knew "Snort" pretty well. His loss was a shock. In so many ways.

 

[MolaKule]

Doesn't the APU provide some backup hydraulic pressure?

What is it about the PTU that it can overheat? Is it underrated for the job?

Addendum: In Airbus literature, it is stated that the PTU 'self-tests', on startup, however the PTU does not contain any electronic motor assistance and cannot be commanded to start; it starts by itself only when hydraulic pressure (or Delta Hydraulic pressure) is present. However, solenoid energized shut-off valves can isolate the PTU via a push-button switch (pb/sw) in the cockpit, but this feature is rarely used.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Doesn't the APU provide some backup hydraulic pressure?

What is it about the PTU that it can overheat? Is it underrated for the job?

Addendum: In Airbus literature, it is stated that the PTU 'self-tests', on startup, however the PTU does not contain any electronic motor assistance and cannot be commanded to start; it starts by itself only when hydraulic pressure (or Delta Hydraulic pressure) is present. However, solenoid energized shut-off valves can isolate the PTU via a push-button switch (pb/sw) in the cockpit, but this feature is rarely used.

Here’s some information from Airbus that explains how the PTU ( not switching it off ) WILL cause the loss of two hydraulic systems ( Green & Yellow ) following the loss of either the Green, or Yellow system ( blue unaffected ).

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/themes/mh_newsdesk/documents/archives/a320-dual-hydraulic-loss.pdf

JetBlue lost both hydraulics after take off in Las Vegas in 2012 ( Airbus modified the PTU to automatically turn off below 1500 if a hydraulic system is lost ….but pilots need to manually switch it off if they lose a hydraulic system above 1500 ).

The Aviation Herald

Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

avherald.com

The only way we use the APU ( it is not mentioned anywhere to do this but common sense says do it, system knowledge wise ) following the loss of a single hydraulics would only be if we lost the Blue system hydraulic fluid ( as opposed to just losing the pump ). Because the "ram air turbine" aka RAT ( Airbus calls "emergency generator" ) needs Blue hydraulic FLUID to power the RAT, we would not have any RAT available ( i.e hit a flock of birds on approach and lose both engines ) in an emergency requiring its use, so we would start the APU for normal electrics ( yes, aircraft batteries...last 22 minutes, but will not power everything like APU ).

3, separate hydraulic systems ( Gree, Blue, and Yellow ) that do not share fluid.

 

[wwillson]

Here’s some information from Airbus that explains how the PTU ( not switching it off ) WILL cause the loss of two hydraulic systems ( Green & Yellow ) following the loss of either the Green, or Yellow system ( blue unaffected ).

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/themes/mh_newsdesk/documents/archives/a320-dual-hydraulic-loss.pdf

JetBlue lost both hydraulics after take off in Las Vegas in 2012 ( Airbus modified the PTU to automatically turn off below 1500 if a hydraulic system is lost ….but pilots need to manually switch it off if they lose a hydraulic system above 1500 ).

The Aviation Herald

Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

avherald.com

How are the hydraulic systems cooled and why can't the cooler keep up with the heat the PTU produces? Two minutes is a very short duration to overheat the system.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

How are the hydraulic systems cooled and why can't the cooler keep up with the heat the PTU produces? Two minutes is a very short duration to overheat the system.

There isn't any information in the manuals regarding hydraulics cooling except information about hydraulic pump overheats and hydraulic reservoir overheats. The cooling would be the pilots turning it off ( engine pump ).

If we have problems due to high temperatures ( pump, or fluid ) , the ECAM ( electronic instructions ) tells us to turn the respective hydraulic system pump off until the overheat light goes out ( which happened on the 2012 JetBlue flight....they got the Yellow system back after it cooled off ).

Yes, two minutes isn't long but that's why doing the ECAM , and turning the PTU off ASAP , is important.

In the sim, the check pilots will fail the hydraulics at the most inconvenient time ( high workload ) and make it even busier by acting like ATC and try to distract us long enough to cause an overheat due to taking to long to do the ECAM actions.

PTU itself doesn't overheat, it causes the opposite side hydraulic system to overheat because the hydraulic pump runs too long trying to maintain pressure following the loss of a single system when the PTU kicks in. Airbus feels it won't overheat if the pilots do as instructed.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Just saw this.

It’s getting a bit ridiculous now if two Airbus aircraft were down to one hydraulic system within a few days of each other.

Qatar Airways A350 Doha-Boston Suffers Hydraulic Failure

Earlier today (June 5), a Qatar Airways Airbus A350 from Doha reported a significant hydraulic failure on approach to Boston.

aviationsourcenews.com

The Aviation Herald

Aviation Herald - News, Incidents and Accidents in Aviation

avherald.com

 

[sloinker]

Thanks all for the thoughtful answers. So as an interested spectator/passenger. Which passenger plane is the safest as far as its flying characteristics, design, build quality etc. I am not including pilot experience/training in my question. Let's make the assumption that the pilots of these planes are fully competent. So which jet passenger plane is safest? Unsafest? Any opinions?