Amsoil ATF in 03 Honda Odyssey?

[onion]

Originally Posted By: Cooper
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Mobil 1 and other fluids do NOT have the metallic elements required for the Honda transmissions.


As I have stated in other threads, the Z1 is one very unusual fluid when analyzed and compared to DexronIII/Mercon, MerconV, DM's ATF+4, and Toyota T-IV, Nissanmatic, etc.


This is one of the MANY reasons that I now believe that an universal ATF is not good for Hondas. This from one of the smartest people to ever be on this board.

Mobil 1 has also pulled their recommendation for using Mobil 1 ATF in place of Z1. It may not state it on the bottle yet, but call them and they will tell you, as well as their website no longer states recommended for Honda Z1.

I do not believe Amsoil would pull their recommendation. But, the chemistry in Amsoil and Mobil 1 is similar. Z1 is completely different.

The problem with MY transmission was clutch wear. The problem with universal ATF's in place of Honda Z1 is being non compatible with the clutch material. The Z1 is obviously a weak fluid and needs to be changed frequently to get any benefit from it. The DW1 fluid from Honda is a direct replacement for the Z1 per Honda. That is why I am now using Honda DW1 instead of Amsoil or any other universal fluid.

I am not stating Amsoil is not a great ATF in OTHER applications. IMHO, I don't believe it is the best fit for Hondas. It appears to work GREAT in other applications.


Having recently contracted HTP (Honda Transmission Paranoia), I'm interested in the new DW-1 fluid. But I've yet to find it in writing by Honda that Dw-1 is fully backwards compatible. So far I've only seen it recommended for certain later-model transmissions. Have you seen any info directly from Honda on the matter? Got a link?

I'm not disputing that DW-1 is backward compatible- everything I've seen so far indicates that it probably is. But I've yet to see that directly from Honda... just lots of hear-say on assorted forums.

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: Cooper
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Very unlikely Amsoil was a causative factor in the failure of the failure prone 2003 Odyssey AT.

Amsoil will not replace a defective Honda transmission.


Originally Posted By: Pablo
Actually Amsoil has picked up the tab as a warranty claim several times even when by right the unit was defective or the owner abused the unit. So your "never" word is interesting.

We cannot say if the Amsoil ATF extended the life of your transmission. But MTTF is around 70K, so perhaps it did. I, for one, can understand how you are angry. I will be also very grouchy if my 2006 Ody transmission dies. It's had full Amsoil ATF since around 10K and we are approaching 90K.



You first say that "Amsoil will not replace a defective Honda transmission." Then go on to say a few posts later..."Actually Amsoil has picked up the tab as a warranty claim several times even when by right the unit was defective or the owner abused the unit."

You remind me of a politician!

As for Amsoil, no, I do not believe it is right to go after them for a replacement. Yes, I believe the majority of the problem is the design of this transmission. No, I do not believe that the Amsoil is a good option for this specific Honda transmission due to clutch material incompatibility. I do believe that the Amsoil changed frequently rather than Honda Z1 changed frequently sped up the process of clutch wear. I am sure it would have failed either way. I am not blaming Amsoil, I just don't think it was the best fit for my transmission.


You can't expect objective advice from a guy who sells the stuff. You wouldn't ask a car salesman to recommend a vehicle for you... he's gonna recommend what he's selling.

 

[caravanmike]

Originally Posted By: Cooper
Apparently, the newer clutches are a different material than the OEM? That is what I was told by the rebuilder and he says he does at least 2-3 Odys or more each week!

this is interesting that the aftermarket trans rebuild kit is made out of different clutch material! i would ask the rebuilder more about this. i am assuming it is a more robust material?

 

[Mau]

Originally Posted By: onion
Originally Posted By: Cooper
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Mobil 1 and other fluids do NOT have the metallic elements required for the Honda transmissions.


As I have stated in other threads, the Z1 is one very unusual fluid when analyzed and compared to DexronIII/Mercon, MerconV, DM's ATF+4, and Toyota T-IV, Nissanmatic, etc.


This is one of the MANY reasons that I now believe that an universal ATF is not good for Hondas. This from one of the smartest people to ever be on this board.

Mobil 1 has also pulled their recommendation for using Mobil 1 ATF in place of Z1. It may not state it on the bottle yet, but call them and they will tell you, as well as their website no longer states recommended for Honda Z1.

I do not believe Amsoil would pull their recommendation. But, the chemistry in Amsoil and Mobil 1 is similar. Z1 is completely different.

The problem with MY transmission was clutch wear. The problem with universal ATF's in place of Honda Z1 is being non compatible with the clutch material. The Z1 is obviously a weak fluid and needs to be changed frequently to get any benefit from it. The DW1 fluid from Honda is a direct replacement for the Z1 per Honda. That is why I am now using Honda DW1 instead of Amsoil or any other universal fluid.

I am not stating Amsoil is not a great ATF in OTHER applications. IMHO, I don't believe it is the best fit for Hondas. It appears to work GREAT in other applications.


Having recently contracted HTP (Honda Transmission Paranoia), I'm interested in the new DW-1 fluid. But I've yet to find it in writing by Honda that Dw-1 is fully backwards compatible. So far I've only seen it recommended for certain later-model transmissions. Have you seen any info directly from Honda on the matter? Got a link?

I'm not disputing that DW-1 is backward compatible- everything I've seen so far indicates that it probably is. But I've yet to see that directly from Honda... just lots of hear-say on assorted forums.


It says right on the bottle, compatible with all honda automatic transmissions (paraphrasing).

I've got DW-1 in the RDX, Amsoil UATF in the Prelude and Z1 in the Accord (once I run out I'll probably switch it to Maxlife)

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Cooper


You first say that "Amsoil will not replace a defective Honda transmission." Then go on to say a few posts later..."Actually Amsoil has picked up the tab as a warranty claim several times even when by right the unit was defective or the owner abused the unit."

You remind me of a politician!

As for Amsoil, no, I do not believe it is right to go after them for a replacement. Yes, I believe the majority of the problem is the design of this transmission. No, I do not believe that the Amsoil is a good option for this specific Honda transmission due to clutch material incompatibility. I do believe that the Amsoil changed frequently rather than Honda Z1 changed frequently sped up the process of clutch wear. I am sure it would have failed either way. I am not blaming Amsoil, I just don't think it was the best fit for my transmission.


Well maybe so, but it is true. Amsoil is not going to replace a defective Honda transmission - the defects are just too well known and the failures are rampant. But Amsoil has replaced engines where people went 30K miles, engine went down 3 quarts and the owner never even checked their oil.

Thank you for not blaming Amsoil. Very honorable Sir.

 

[Cooper]

Drove the van around today. The rebuilt transmission shifts great. The DW-1 shifts nice and smooth. It is much smoother than fresh Z-1, which is why I went to the Amsoil in the first place. Nice firm, solid, yet smooth shifts.

I did read that the DW-1 is a direct replacement for Z-1. The bulk containers in the Honda dealerships are being replaced with DW-1. So, you will be getting DW-1 instead of Z-1 if you get a drain and fill at the dealership.

Was told that it is hush hush by the Honda dealership. This is just what I was told by the parts guy...so take it for what it is worth. He stated they wanted to deplete the current stock of Z-1 before they officially declare DW-1 as a replacement. But, that it will be done soon. They are already not getting any more bulk Z-1. It would also appear it has a more robust, but similar add pack and a different base oil than Z-1.

I will continue to test it in my 03 rebuilt 5AT. So far, so good!

 

[Dave Sherman]

Thanks for the info on DW-1, Cooper. Looking more at Mobil's specifications, I notice that Honda isn't the only one that no longer appears. Nissan, Toyota, and Subaru are on the label on the bottle I have, but not on their website. Even their Multi-Vehicle ATF seems to leave those out.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: Cooper
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Mobil 1 and other fluids do NOT have the metallic elements required for the Honda transmissions.


As I have stated in other threads, the Z1 is one very unusual fluid when analyzed and compared to DexronIII/Mercon, MerconV, DM's ATF+4, and Toyota T-IV, Nissanmatic, etc.


This from one of the smartest people to ever be on this board.

I do not believe Amsoil would pull their recommendation. But, the chemistry in Amsoil and Mobil 1 is similar.

The problem with MY transmission was clutch wear. The problem with universal ATF's in place of Honda Z1 is being non compatible with the clutch material.



Mola is smart, but he is not perfect. I think you should post the thread this came from:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/519494/

If you really look the ATF's they are not that different. If the elements are metallic they will be picked up in a used oil analysis/VOA. Z1 just came up as weak, not vastly different. It's what you don't see in VOA's that make ATF's different. You can ask Mola this directly.

What makes you think M1 and Amsoil ATF's are similar? Just VOA/used oil analysis? Because they are different. Different base oil mixes, different additive suppliers.....

" The problem with universal ATF's in place of Honda Z1 is being non compatible with the clutch material. "

Care to actually prove this?

 

[onion]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think that Cooper's Odyessey trans failed in the most common manner. I understand that these transmissions usually have bearing problems- not clutch problems.

It's almost as if he was running the incorrect transmission fluid with additives & friction properties that the transmission wasn't designed for... oh yeah...

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: onion
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think that Cooper's Odyessey trans failed in the most common manner. I understand that these transmissions usually have bearing problems- not clutch problems.

It's almost as if he was running the incorrect transmission fluid with additives & friction properties that the transmission wasn't designed for... oh yeah...


There were (are?) multiple Honda transmission failure modes. The most common in 2003 is indeed clutch material problems. In particular 3rd gear. But other gears as well. This corresponds with what was replaced in Cooper's 2003 transmission. The bearing problems were mainly confined to 1999-2001 4 speeds. Nice try though.

Quote:
Transmission issues

The 4-speed automatic transmission in 1999 to 2001 models had serious problems with transmission durability. Honda spokesman Mike Spencer stated that four-speed models were afflicted with a bad bearing that could break apart, scattering fragments of metal that clogged fluid passageways in the transmission, causing it to shift erratically.[11] Honda responded to the problems by extending the warranty on the transmission on U.S.A. '99-'01 models to 7 years or 100,000 miles (160,900 km). A class action settlement further extended coverage to 109,000 miles (175,400 km) or 93 months for some '99-'01 Odysseys in the U.S.A.[12] Canada is not included. The five-speed automatic was first installed in Odyssey in the 2002 model, but general reliability of the transmission did not improve until 2004 according to Consumer Reports. Mike Spencer, a spokesman for Acura, said that the five-speed models typically were damaged by premature wear of the third-gear clutch pack. As the clutch friction material abraded, it scattered bits inside the transmission case, clogging fluid lines and causing erratic shifting. Drivers might suffer slipping, poor or no shifts, or sudden down-shifts from 5th gear to 2nd gear.[11]

Under some conditions, a different 5-speed transmission problem arose. Second gear could overheat and break, causing the transmission to lock. An oil jet was added to lubricate this gear but this did not solve the third gear clutch problem.[13] The addition of the Honda transmission cooler with the towing package still allows transmission fluid temperatures that are too high. But it was required along with a power steering cooler for any towing, or the warranty would be void. The Acura CL, TL, MDX and Honda Accord suffered similar problems.

 

[meep]

I gotta give pablo some props for doing some homework and not just jumping to conclusions.

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: onion
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think that Cooper's Odyessey trans failed in the most common manner. I understand that these transmissions usually have bearing problems- not clutch problems.

It's almost as if he was running the incorrect transmission fluid with additives & friction properties that the transmission wasn't designed for... oh yeah...


There were (are?) multiple Honda transmission failure modes. The most common in 2003 is indeed clutch material problems. In particular 3rd gear. But other gears as well. This corresponds with what was replaced in Cooper's 2003 transmission. The bearing problems were mainly confined to 1999-2001 4 speeds. Nice try though.

Quote:
Transmission issues

The 4-speed automatic transmission in 1999 to 2001 models had serious problems with transmission durability. Honda spokesman Mike Spencer stated that four-speed models were afflicted with a bad bearing that could break apart, scattering fragments of metal that clogged fluid passageways in the transmission, causing it to shift erratically.[11] Honda responded to the problems by extending the warranty on the transmission on U.S.A. '99-'01 models to 7 years or 100,000 miles (160,900 km). A class action settlement further extended coverage to 109,000 miles (175,400 km) or 93 months for some '99-'01 Odysseys in the U.S.A.[12] Canada is not included. The five-speed automatic was first installed in Odyssey in the 2002 model, but general reliability of the transmission did not improve until 2004 according to Consumer Reports. Mike Spencer, a spokesman for Acura, said that the five-speed models typically were damaged by premature wear of the third-gear clutch pack. As the clutch friction material abraded, it scattered bits inside the transmission case, clogging fluid lines and causing erratic shifting. Drivers might suffer slipping, poor or no shifts, or sudden down-shifts from 5th gear to 2nd gear.[11]

Under some conditions, a different 5-speed transmission problem arose. Second gear could overheat and break, causing the transmission to lock. An oil jet was added to lubricate this gear but this did not solve the third gear clutch problem.[13] The addition of the Honda transmission cooler with the towing package still allows transmission fluid temperatures that are too high. But it was required along with a power steering cooler for any towing, or the warranty would be void. The Acura CL, TL, MDX and Honda Accord suffered similar problems.


Good info. Thanks.

Where does that come from? Got a link?

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: meep
I gotta give pablo some props for doing some homework and not just jumping to conclusions.


Thanks man. All I did was Google something like "Honda transmission failure modes". FRACK - about a brazzilion hits. Honestly - I should have done that before we bought the Odyssey new in 2006! The quote came from Wikipedia - not my favorite source - but it summed up the hundreds of other sources quite well and the quote sources are at the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Odyssey

 

[Pablo]

I would like to add more to this thread. Most all people report from just slightly firmer shifts to no noticeable change in shift feel. This probably just the first hint the transmission was heading south. The clutch material was shedding.

Also, an observation I have made with Honda Z1 ATF vs. Amsoil ATF is just how loaded up with gray and nasty stuff Z1 becomes over the same time periods, while the Amsoil stays a fairly robust red. I know this is not scientific but I've looked at a lot of ATF in 10+ years.