Amsoil and Group III

[MolaKule]

If you define real deal PCMO's as PAO/Ester combinations that you are comfortable with it, that's fine.

I always thought of the real deal as 100% ester formulations such as NEO or the Amsoil 10W40 API formulations which contained diesters, mixed-diesters or complex esters. Their performance was superb, but the cost of synthetic base materials has relegated the 100% esters to jet turbines and similar applications.

After much research, it was found that PAO/ester formulations could yield the same performance at lower cost.

Now to appear on the scene are Bio-synthetic oils that appear to have the potential to overshadow all previous formulations in many performance areas. These formulations are the result of biodegradeable, stabilized seed (vegetable) oils mixed with PAO's.

And on the horizon is the future development of Group VI oils musing GTL technologies, which also promise improved performance.

The bottom line is, I am never satisfied with "the real deal," whatever its definition.

 

[JHZR2]

sheesh... this is old.

Forget value proposition. the best oil is the one that produces the best UOA results on your engine, and your driving profile.

All the rest is folly.

I don't have fault with any company regarding hiding proprietary formulations, etc. they dont want to or need to share. I agree that we dont want to pay extra money for inferior products, but the problem is that people are set on the "value proposition" that you have to have group IV/V basestocks in order to be a worthy oil... and people get bent out of shape about it.

Is there some covering and hiding? probably... but if youre REALLY concerned, then use UOA as it is the only real determinant. Otherwise, remember, lots of vehicles have gone VERY far on just standard oil changes with standard oil.

JMH

 

[BerndV]

I don't disagree with anything you said. I define real deal synthetic PCMO's as any combination of Ester, PAO, AN, etc. Very good performance at a lower price can be had with Group III. However, it does not constitute synthetic in my book. NEO makes great products that are justified in their expense.

 

[FZ1]

I always look in the bottle to make sure I got the right base oil.

 

[glennc]

The problem with that is that the margin of error in evaluating UOA is huge. There are always questions about the cause of any particular result, and even if you have a perfect UOA, it could be that another (cheaper) oil could have done just as well. Also, for one user, the sample size is going to be miniscule - in fact your first oil choice per vehicle is going to be made with a UOA sample size of zero.

So figuring out what you are getting is perhaps a worthwhile thing to attempt. BerndV has made some very good points here IMO and I also wonder why there would be any desire to conceal an oil's basic make-up, grp x/y/z if there is nothing to hide. I understand proprietary: it's a valid argument but also an obvious cover. I don't care about semantics like what is "synthetic" or what is the "real deal," but I do want to believe (with some reason) that the oil I'm spending my money on is the best that I can get for that money.

Molakule - do you know that Redline's oils are not close to 100% ester? It seems they have pretty much stated that there is only "a little" PAO for miscibility or what have you. Do you have some reason we should question that? You seem to be saying that the performance of some 100% ester oils has been superb, but then imply that Redline is not included in that group.

 

[BerndV]

Glenn-this was one of the responses I received from Dave at Redline: "Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, our primary base stock is the Group V polyol ester though we do use some PAO's". Thus it does contain some PAO but is primarily POE. During a discussion on the phone with Dave, he told me that there was absolutely zero Group III in ANY of their products. I think this is about as much disclosure as one can reasonably expect from a manufacturer. If I were them, I would plaster this bragging right all over their website. BTW, he was very polite and patient. Again, thumbs up to Dave and Redline for their willingness to have these conversations with consumers.

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
sheesh... this is old.

Forget value proposition. the best oil is the one that produces the best UOA results on your engine, and your driving profile.

All the rest is folly.

I don't have fault with any company regarding hiding proprietary formulations, etc. they dont want to or need to share. I agree that we dont want to pay extra money for inferior products, but the problem is that people are set on the "value proposition" that you have to have group IV/V basestocks in order to be a worthy oil... and people get bent out of shape about it.

Is there some covering and hiding? probably... but if youre REALLY concerned, then use UOA as it is the only real determinant. Otherwise, remember, lots of vehicles have gone VERY far on just standard oil changes with standard oil.

JMH


Excellent post!

So many people here act like an certain brand of oil,is like the Holy god of all oils and you should only run that brand!!!

Quite hilarious

 

[BerndV]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
So many people here act like an certain brand of oil,is like the Holy god of all oils and you should only run that brand!!!

Quite hilarious

Thanks for the thoughtful and incisive contribution.

 

[sunfire]

What if they they told you their base stocks are mainly comprised of Group III. And they have developed an add pack /blend process that surpasses the performance of other oils on the market. Since they have the best performing oil, why can't they sell it at top dollar prices for their technology?

AUTORX is $25 per quart! They are selling you their technology they don't need to justify their price by telling you how much PAO is in the formula or how much it costs them to make a quart of ARX.

 

[Mike_dup1]

You are just one of thousands of people emailing questions daily. No matter what it is, there are always people complaining about the price of something.


Here is what I know and it was told to us in person by the head mucky mucks. Anymore info is proprietary and won't be disclosed for business reasons. The competition is always watching for what Amsoil will do next so they can maybe get a jump on them.

Group III synthetics would be our XL oil and the 15-40 diesel oil blend.

GROUP IV, which is the rest of the AMSOIL line, is a 100% FULL SYNTHETIC oil consisting of Polyalphaolefins (PAO's).

All major oil company synthetics fall into Gr. III category. I won't name names because it will only give cause for more arguments. If it carries an API donut, its not a Gr. IV.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Mike_dup1


All major oil company synthetics fall into Gr. III category. I won't name names because it will only give cause for more arguments.



I HIGHLY doubt that more than one or two grades of M1 have any substantial GIII content. The 5w30 seems to be the most likely candidate.

Esso XD3 0w30 (Esso is part of Exxon-Mobil) is stated to be of a PAO base right in their data sheet.

Amsoil BUYS base stocks from Exxon-Mobil, do you think the world's largest supplier of PAO's would not use them in their own product?

 

[salesrep]

"What if they they told you their base stocks are mainly comprised of Group III. And they have developed an add pack /blend process that surpasses the performance of other oils on the market."

Schaeffers proudly uses G III. GIII has more than proven its mettle.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: salesrep
"What if they they told you their base stocks are mainly comprised of Group III. And they have developed an add pack /blend process that surpasses the performance of other oils on the market."

Schaeffers proudly uses G III. GIII has more than proven its mettle.


Yup, and so is Rotella. Both of which whooped the living [censored] out of Royal Purple's RACING OIL, in a UOA as you know

 

[pickled]

Not when Mobil can make a profit off Amsoil's pricey purchases, reinvest the revenue into marketing then use cheaper group III base oils and charge a hefty retail price to ensure good ROI! Mind you this is a pure [censored] post on my part...do not take it seriously, but that's what I'd do if I was Exxon-Mobil. Brand positioning allows for all sorts of possibilities.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: pickled
Not when Mobil can make a profit off Amsoil's pricey purchases, reinvest the revenue into marketing then use cheaper group III base oils and charge a hefty retail price to ensure good ROI! Mind you this is a pure [censored] post on my part...do not take it seriously, but that's what I'd do if I was Exxon-Mobil. Brand positioning allows for all sorts of possibilities.


I guess my question to this theory (as you noted) would be as to how much GIII EM produces compared to GIV? IE, I wonder if the sheer quantity of GIV they produce as a company may actually make it cheaper for them to use GIV than GIII? I have no figures, so this is just a theory as well.

 

[pickled]

Ahh, the economy of scale question...that's a good one to add to the theory of a theory! Where is the knowledgeable Doug Hillary...we need his insight to fuel our multiple theories. I'm sure he could give us a feel for this. I have heard, however, that Chevron has an extremely large capacity for manufacturing group II+ and group III base stocks.

 

[BerndV]

Originally Posted By: sunfire
What if they they told you their base stocks are mainly comprised of Group III. And they have developed an add pack /blend process that surpasses the performance of other oils on the market. Since they have the best performing oil, why can't they sell it at top dollar prices for their technology?

AUTORX is $25 per quart! They are selling you their technology they don't need to justify their price by telling you how much PAO is in the formula or how much it costs them to make a quart of ARX.
This would be a very satisfactory answer, as it answers the simple question I asked them. I'm sorry, but refusing to tell someone wether or not a given product contains Group III on the grounds that it is a secret is pure nonsense. The only reason not to go on the record is because there is something to hide. Perhaps, due to cost constraints, Amsoil is starting to put some Group III in their premier products and they are afraid that consumers won't pay $10.00 per quart for a partial Group III oil. I don't use AUTORX so I don't care what it costs or contains.

 

[Tempest]

What's a GC test cost?

 

[Canawler]

I don't get it. To me, it seems like this would be a selling point. You would think that the companies who use grp IV and V stocks would want to brag/advertise the fact.
I talked to someone at Brad Penn oil and mentioned in passing that the msds specifically said one of their oils used PAO and they still said something along the lines of "we don't comment on oil formulation" and that you could interpret the msds as you see fit.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Perhaps, due to cost constraints, Amsoil is starting to put some Group III in their premier products



I keep seeing more and more "opinion creep" going on here. It's usually reserved for television show forums where someone suggests that the plot will go a certain way. They then sorta start posting in a progressively convincing manner ..and before you know it, it's an assumed fact.

It's sorta like the speech that whathisface did in Animal House before the whole fraternity walked out on hearing about their charter. By the time he was done, it was an affront upon the American way of life.


Can anyone, outside of speculation from "vapor dialog" say that Amsoil is using Group III basestocks?

In a day or two, the world will be assured that PAO is no longer used by Amsoil and that you're being ripped off major if you buy the stuff.