Amsoil 5W-20 Test w/4.6L V8

[H20024.6L]

I wanted to post this information for all to review and comment on, regarding two 5W-20 Oil tests I have just received back from Blackstone Labs.

Background information:
4.6L Ford V8 with 31,000 miles, K&N Airfilter. Factory oil removed at 1,000 miles, Amsoil 5W-20 used exclusively with Amsoil filters, all changes at 5,000 miles increments.

Test 1: Amsoil 5W-20 with 5,100 miles, 0 make up oil, Amsoil oil filter, K&N Airfilter;

First number is the test oil, second is the 'Universal average' number.

Amsoil 5W-20
w/5100 miles Universal Avg

Aluminum 3 5
Chromium 1 1
Iron 15 24
Copper 4 13
Lead 0 2
Tin 0 1
Molybdenum 2 25
Nickel 0 1
Manganese 1 1
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 0 0
Boron 5 39
Silicon 19 13
Sodium 2 7
Calcium 2372 1562
Magnesium 329 520
Phosphorus 760 771
Zinc 1119 953
Barium 0 1

TBN = 6.0

Tested Values/Values Should be
SUS Viscosity = 53.8/53-62
Flashpoint = 385/>355
Fuel Antifreeze = 0.0%/0
Water = 0.0/ Insolubles = 0.5%/
Test 2: Virgin Amsoil 5W-20 Sample

Virgin
Amsoil 5W-20 Universal Avg

Aluminum 1 1
Chromium 0 0
Iron 2 1
Copper 0 0
Lead 0 0
Tin 1 1
Molybdenum 1 7
Nickel 0 0
Manganese 0 0
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 3 2
Boron 5 7
Silicon 2 3
Sodium 1 1
Calcium 3029 2429
Magnesium 22 87
Phosphorus 751 744
Zinc 849 850
Barium 0 0

TBN = 12.0

Tested Values/Values Should be
SUS Viscosity = 54.0/53-62
Flashpoint = 440/>355
Fuel -/ Antifreeze = -/0
Water = 0.0%/ Insolubles = 0.0%/
[ February 20, 2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: H20024.6L ]

 

[Spector]

Looks like this engine is finished breaking in and has settled down to nice numbers IMO. The rest of the report is not posted but assume it is fine. Like to see TBN and viscosity on this 5W20 new formula oil they sell now that it is not synthetic.

 

[H20024.6L]

Spector,

Had some trouble with the post, but here is the complete report.

 

[Patman]

With lead numbers of zero, I'd say that 5w20 is doing it's job protecting the engine!! 5w20 naysayers, what are you gonna rag on now?

 

[MNgopher]

Wear numbers track very nicely with other 4.6 engines posted on the board using various oils. Looks like the 5w20 is doing the same job the 5w30's are doing in this engine.

We're seeing an awful lot of posts from these modular V8's (4.6l, 5.4l) with low (as in zero) lead levels. Maybe we're startign to see why the longetivity is high on these engines!

One question - how long was the oil in there? Nice to see the 5w20 faring well in the winter, but what about in the heat of summer?

 

[H20024.6L]

MNgopher; The tested oil was in from mid-September to early February.

 

[MNgopher]

Are you planning on keeping up the 5w-20 regimen through the summer too? I see you've been running it for a while, so I would assume so. If so keep posting the numbers if you do analysis! Nice to see the new oil weights funftioning well.

 

[mdv]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MNgopher:
Wear numbers track very nicely with other 4.6 engines posted on the board using various oils. Looks like the 5w20 is doing the same job the 5w30's are doing in this engine.

---

Wasn't Amsoil's group iv 5W-20 almost a 30 wt. oil? If so, that would certainly explain the wear when compared to something like Mobil 1 xW-30.

 

[Green Max]

Did anyone else notice the 15-fold difference in magnesium? Either the two oils were from different batches or something just isn't right.

 

[H20024.6L]

Green Max:
I rechecked the Magnesium numbers and they are correct; used oil - 329, virgin oil - 22. According to the test results, the used oil 'universal average was 520, and the virgin universal average was 87. The used oil was purchased in August and the virgin sample came from oil purchased in December.

 

[Terry]

Amsoil changed their formulation from the two tests .

Not uncommon for Amsoil and Mobil 1, depending on when and where you buy.

Be careful using the universal averages as they are not from a very accurate universe IMHO.

[ February 20, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]

 

[wulimaster]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:


Be careful using the universal averages as they are not from a very accurate universe IMHO.

---

Universal averages are useless unless normalized. Have you mentioned this to the lab?

 

[wulimaster]

Why no nitration or oxidation numbers?

Also, why didn't you run the oil to 7500 miles?

 

[Jay]

Blackstone gives "insolubles" rather than oxidation and nitration, and the insolubles are somewhat high. Maybe not for winter, though, if you do a lot of short trip driving.

The wear numbers are very good, especially with the K&N air filter.

 

[metroplex]

I'm a 5W-20 naysayer - and the reason why he's getting such good wear numbers is because he's using a full synthetic 5W-20.

With 5w30, you can use a dino oil safely for 3000+ miles before it starts shearing to a 5W-20.

With 5W-20 dino, it would shear down to a 5W-10 or 5W-5 after 3000+ miles, which is why the absolute cheapest 5W-20 you can find is synthetic blend.

I'd say that synthetic 5W-20 is the thinnest oil you can run before getting too thin - which is just on the line. I'd use a xW-30 for more thermal stability throughout the year, especially w/ the way I drive.

I try to hit 5000+ RPM in my 4.6L SOHC V8 (w/ 4R70W) as much as possible when merging on the highway so I do not baby this engine at all.

All I can say is that the engine + oil used for this analysis isn't mine. I don't buy into Amsoil products let alone 5W-20 oils.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by metroplex:


With 5W-20 dino, it would shear down to a 5W-10 or 5W-5 after 3000+ miles, which is why the absolute cheapest 5W-20 you can find is synthetic blend.

---

Why do you keep mentioning 5w20 dino oil when that oil simply does not exist?

And how do you know it would shear back to a 5w10 if the oil doesn't exist? If it doesn't exist, you couldn't have seen UOAs on it, so you are really in no position to make this judgement.

Technically speaking it would be much easier to make a conventional 5w20 stay in grade than it would be to make a conventional 5w30 stay in grade. A 5w20 could be made very easily, simply make it the same way you would a 5w30, and add less VII. With less VII, that means less chance to thin out. Very simple.

But like I said, there is no 5w20 out there made with all group 1 or all group 2 base oil, they all use a good portion of group 3 or better.

Why don't you just admit that you haven't seen a single bad 5w20 oil analysis and get over your hatred of this viscosity?

I don't plan on running it in any of my cars, but if I owned a new car that called for it, I wouldn't hesitate to run it for at least the first year or two of the warranty period before I started going with a slightly thicker oil. Of course I'd look at the UOAs and make a judgement there too.

It may seem like I'm picking on you Metroplex, but I'm really not. I just don't understand why you hate 5w20 so much when we haven't seen any evidence on here that this oil causes more engine wear than 5w30. This message board, and especially this section here, is where all the rumors get squashed. Rumor on the internet is that 5w20 will cause premature engine failure. But I haven't seen anything on here which would indicate that.

One more thing. Redline's new 5w20 has an HTHS of 3.3. Compare that to Mobil 1's 5w30 which has an HTHS of about 3.2 (some have said it's even lower) So which do you think will protect the engine better?

[ February 21, 2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[Spector]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wulimaster:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:
Be careful using the universal averages as they are not from a very accurate universe IMHO.

---

Universal averages are useless unless normalized. Have you mentioned this to the lab?

---

Yes, Terry, now that you have an agreement with Blacksone perhaps you can alter their reporting of these universal averages. As a minimum they should be extrapolated to the same mileage as the sample in question for those wear elements that are affected by mileage. Ie: Blackstone says 10 ppm of iron is normal and our univerasl ave mileage was 4000 but the sample in queston had 9000 miles and 20 ppm of iron. Their comment ( usually that your iron is slightly elevated etc) is totally useless. If they had extrapolated the number their univeral ave would have been 22.5 ppm of iron based upon iron/1000 miles etc. Personally, I would have them do away with the universal averages as only trend analsyis on your own engine is worthwhile as it is your climate, your driving conditions, your actual mileage etc. They are, in many cases, causing concern where none actually exists!

Just my two cents.

 

[TooSlick]

This looks like a test of the current API/SL version of the XL-7500 series oil, which came out last May. The original SJ stuff had a different additive chemistry and a baseline TBN of more like 9.5. So they have boosted the level of detergent/dispersant additives. Honda is now recommending 10,000 mile oil changes for some of their engines using 5w-20 - that may be part of the reason for this formulation change.

I see no problem at all with these results ...my main concern with 5w-20 oils is bearing wear. Amsoil has purposely formulated their 5w-20 to meet the min HT/HS viscosity for 5w30/10w-30 oils @ 2.9 Cp. As long as the engine is designed to develop good oil pressure with a low viscosity lube, you are fine. Valvetrain wear can be addressed by going to roller lifters and using a robust antiwear additive chemistry.

TooSlick

 

[H20024.6L]

Answers/comments to some of the questions/comments posted;
Metroplex - The vehicle is a Mercury Mountaineer and I also drive it hard and push the 5000 rpm many times a day. This is almost zero highway mileage on this oil, it's all stop light and heavy foot to the next light. I understand your point as well.

Wulimaster - Why didn't I leave the oil in for 7500 miles? As you know the XL-7500 is 'rated' at 7500 miles. One of my reasons for the test was to evaluate the oil at 5000 miles to determine wear levels and if there was 'more' miles in the oil.

TooSlick - I understood from the Amsoil website that the 5W-20 formula was changed sometime last year. The used oil was purchased in August and the virgin sample was from a bottle purchased in December. Are you saying that the 2 samples were different formulas?

 

[Terry]

Spector, As long as people increase their purchases of #46 kits from Blackstone I believe in the near future we can upgrade some of the elements offered.

I am not a statistician but the universal averages are just one tool, since the "universe of labs " don't share data Ryan at Blackstone is doing a excellent job.

Once again the variability of Automotive oils and the cars themselves will not allow a cost effective way to deal with the issue.

I have been working with Blackstone to provide a FTIR capability for soot/solids,nox,oxd,sulfur, etc, like we offer with our inhouse kits. I must say I am very impressed with the centrifuged insolubles accuracy when I compare to other tests.

Many of my customers are alternating between our kit and the Blackstone kit to get a cost effective look from different techniques viewpoint.

I am very happy with the accuracy and speed of turnaround with the Blackstone/Dyson Analysis #46 test.