Ammonia is the solution
- Thread starter Vercingetorix
- Start date
I wonder if we could handle ammonia on a mass scale without burning everyone's lungs up. Would have to provide a sealed transfer process to keep the fumes from escaping while fueling and driving. Or maybe there's some way to neutralize the fumes?
We do it with every other combustible gas.
Huffing petrol, diesel, propane, CNG, or hydrogen isn't so healthy either.
None of which are directly fatal as is ammonia. Huffing not required.
There’s a reason ammonia is no longer used as a refrigerant in residential appliances.
But ammonia is way more irritating than those fumes. It can stun a person. In my experience, walking through a thick cloud of ammonia fumes is comparable to being exposed to a light dose of mace.
Even if it doesn’t immediately kill you it will later.
Worked with anhydrous in commercial refrigeration. It is very dangerous breath it burns your lungs, touch it burns or take a dollar bill put in liquid and it will shrink it about half size.
Zero emissions? hahaha!!!!
Currently the most efficient way to make ammonia is synthesizing hydrogen from methane gas. Seems to me it would be more efficient to avoid the process all together and just burn the methane.....
Sigh. Yet another Rube Goldberg energy scheme. In the same department as the guys who propose to store excess power by stacking concrete blocks and then lowering them when power is needed.
Starting with either renewable electricity or natural gas as the primary energy there is about a 20% - 35% energy loss converting the primary energy to hydrogen. Outside the hydrogen manufacturing process, some more energy is consumed in a air separation process separating the nitrogen needed to make the ammonia. One you have ammonia it is not directly usable in a fuel cell you must turn around and input energy to decompose ammonia back to hydrogen and nitrogen. Finally the the hydrogen must be converted into electricity using a fuel cell which is less than 80% fuel efficient and put that through an electric motor with another 5-10% loss. In short, the laws of thermodynamics extract an energy tax every time you make an energy conversion and this process is so conversion intensive you would be lucky to wind up with a work output efficiency even close to that of a diesel engine.
Much is made about the convenience of ammonia for energy storage but a gallon of ammonia still only contains about 45% the energy of a gallon of diesel. Back to the drawing boards.
Starting with either renewable electricity or natural gas as the primary energy there is about a 20% - 35% energy loss converting the primary energy to hydrogen. Outside the hydrogen manufacturing process, some more energy is consumed in a air separation process separating the nitrogen needed to make the ammonia. One you have ammonia it is not directly usable in a fuel cell you must turn around and input energy to decompose ammonia back to hydrogen and nitrogen. Finally the the hydrogen must be converted into electricity using a fuel cell which is less than 80% fuel efficient and put that through an electric motor with another 5-10% loss. In short, the laws of thermodynamics extract an energy tax every time you make an energy conversion and this process is so conversion intensive you would be lucky to wind up with a work output efficiency even close to that of a diesel engine.
Much is made about the convenience of ammonia for energy storage but a gallon of ammonia still only contains about 45% the energy of a gallon of diesel. Back to the drawing boards.
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I think ammonia is more dangerous then good. It'll never pan out.
I can see it being used in a "reactor" style setup far away from residential and the cooled water transferred to the residential building for cooling. I do not see it being in a vehicle. Lawn mower might getaway with it if parked outdoor and ride outdoor at low speed, but why?
Ammonia is also highly corrosive to metals. Don't forget that part. It's another reason you don't see ammonia as household refrigerant any more. You don't even see any surviving refrigerators in use. My late stepfather had one back in the 1950s in a house he rented—until the day it leaked.
My dad had one in his restaurant in the '50s. The tank was in the basement. When it leaked it had a beneficial side effect (it killed all the rats).
Hydrogen is not particularly unhealthy to breathe in small % (fume level) amounts, even long term. The risk of it is the same as any other low-harm gas, that you wouldn't want to be trapped in an enclosed area and fill that with hydrogen, because then there is no oxygen to breathe. Air is mostly (~78%) nitrogen yet the same applies, fill the area with nitrogen and you don't have any oxygen to breathe.
Not to mention highy toxic chlorine gas used in commercial pools is trucked around. Plus in the old days ammonia was used as a refrigerant in old refrigerators and is still used in commercial coolers and on farms. I wouldn't be worried about it, but there is always that one clown saying here hold my beer....
propane, CNG, or hydrogen
Those are considered "simple asphyxiants"-- not poisonous to breathe unless their concentration is so high that the normal oxygen content of air is significantly displaced. Then there is a potential for death due to lack of oxygen. Such concentrations would also be explosive.
Those are considered "simple asphyxiants"-- not poisonous to breathe unless their concentration is so high that the normal oxygen content of air is significantly displaced. Then there is a potential for death due to lack of oxygen. Such concentrations would also be explosive.
Kind of like that one clown that says it’s safe despite not understanding basic chemistry. People died in their sleep when ammonia refrigerators leaked. Yes it’s thermodynamically a very good refrigerant but also very toxic.
Never said it was safe just like the jerk who replied to my comment and failed to read the entire thing.
You said you wouldn’t be worried about it. That was the thing that showed me you have no idea what you’re talking about nor any basic knowledge of chemistry.
The title of the article is misleading and you can tell people didn't read more than the title. It is a hydrogen fuel cell with the source of hydrogen being from ammonia being cracked instead of compressed hydrogen in tanks. It has little to do with emissions.
