trolling at its best.
American love affair for thin oil
- Thread starter Ranchu
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Engines used to run a lot quieter when people had thicker oil in them. Now days, all I see on the road are buzzy little Hyundai's and Honda's with their loud buzzy engines and their loud rickety-rackety valvetrains going down the road bizz bizz bizz. People paying $450 a month for those buzzy cars and then take them to the dealer to have 5W-20 poured into them so they can go bizz bizz bizz some more.
Originally Posted By: Ranchu
I believe 25W-70 is available in the land down under. I can imagine pouring that at 0F.
> 0F in Oz? Surely you jest...
To Jim Allen:
You say that Ford has invested millions of dollars in qualification testing for engine parts with thin oil. I don't doubt this for a minute. Its probably cost the industry billions having to meet these "CAFE" regulations. The only thing worse than failing to meet these Government regulations would be having one of your "class action" lawsuits from all the angry customers with broken engines.
Sure, you can claim that the engines give reliable service under average conditions as a result of all this testing and redevelopment. My point is: if you don't value CAFE, if you don't care about a 0.5 mpg difference in fuel consumption, wouldn't it be better to use a slightly thicker oil that offers better protection, as recommended by the same manufacturer, for the same vehicle and engine and similar climite; the only difference being it its sold in a different market?
This is where my post comes in on measuring oil pressure at idle and through out the RPM operation of the engine, along with oil temperatures. If the oil pressure is within specifications and if the oil temperature is not above 100C the majority of the time what is the extra protection you speak of?
I believe 25W-70 is available in the land down under. I can imagine pouring that at 0F.
> 0F in Oz? Surely you jest...
To Jim Allen:
You say that Ford has invested millions of dollars in qualification testing for engine parts with thin oil. I don't doubt this for a minute. Its probably cost the industry billions having to meet these "CAFE" regulations. The only thing worse than failing to meet these Government regulations would be having one of your "class action" lawsuits from all the angry customers with broken engines.
Sure, you can claim that the engines give reliable service under average conditions as a result of all this testing and redevelopment. My point is: if you don't value CAFE, if you don't care about a 0.5 mpg difference in fuel consumption, wouldn't it be better to use a slightly thicker oil that offers better protection, as recommended by the same manufacturer, for the same vehicle and engine and similar climite; the only difference being it its sold in a different market?
This is where my post comes in on measuring oil pressure at idle and through out the RPM operation of the engine, along with oil temperatures. If the oil pressure is within specifications and if the oil temperature is not above 100C the majority of the time what is the extra protection you speak of?
Originally Posted By: Ranchu
This forum is a fascinating and unique resource! I'm currently researching the best engine oil for my BMW E39, E30 and Volvo 850.
One thing I can't understand is this love for really thin oils like 5w20 and 5w30. I understand that parts of America get very cold however other States (California?) have climates similar to parts of Australia.
Reading the posts it seems you are crippled by federal/commonwealth regulations?
Currently the family fleet runs:
1997 BMW 528i - Mobil 1 0w40
1986 BMW 325e - Valvoline XLD Classic 20w50
1993 Volvo 850 - Penrite 5w40
2001 Holden Calais VX - Penrite 5w40
If you are looking for a one size fits all a 15W-40 PCMO/HDEO should give you the closest HTHS to M-1 0W-40 let me know what is available to you and I will make the recommendation. If this where North America I would be recommending 15W-40 Delvac if I could not be on hand to verify the results.
This forum is a fascinating and unique resource! I'm currently researching the best engine oil for my BMW E39, E30 and Volvo 850.
One thing I can't understand is this love for really thin oils like 5w20 and 5w30. I understand that parts of America get very cold however other States (California?) have climates similar to parts of Australia.
Reading the posts it seems you are crippled by federal/commonwealth regulations?
Currently the family fleet runs:
1997 BMW 528i - Mobil 1 0w40
1986 BMW 325e - Valvoline XLD Classic 20w50
1993 Volvo 850 - Penrite 5w40
2001 Holden Calais VX - Penrite 5w40
If you are looking for a one size fits all a 15W-40 PCMO/HDEO should give you the closest HTHS to M-1 0W-40 let me know what is available to you and I will make the recommendation. If this where North America I would be recommending 15W-40 Delvac if I could not be on hand to verify the results.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
This is where my post comes in on measuring oil pressure at idle and through out the RPM operation of the engine, along with oil temperatures. If the oil pressure is within specifications and if the oil temperature is not above 100C the majority of the time what is the extra protection you speak of?
Oil pressure alone doesn't lubricate engines. Oil that keeps moving parts
from coming in contact with each other is what lubricates engines.
This is where my post comes in on measuring oil pressure at idle and through out the RPM operation of the engine, along with oil temperatures. If the oil pressure is within specifications and if the oil temperature is not above 100C the majority of the time what is the extra protection you speak of?
Oil pressure alone doesn't lubricate engines. Oil that keeps moving parts
from coming in contact with each other is what lubricates engines.
Where does flow fit in this?
The oil is gonna flow whether it wants to or not because the oil pump is gonna MAKE IT flow.
Oil pressure is not created by the pump but rather the resistance to the outlet flow of that pump and part of that resistance is the clearances between the bearings and the other parts inside the engine FYI.
You could still get 100 PSI oil pressure with a sump full of WD-40 if you have a powerful
enough oil pump, but that doesn't mean your engine isn't gonna burn up in the process.
enough oil pump, but that doesn't mean your engine isn't gonna burn up in the process.
Originally Posted By: Ranchu
My point is: if you don't value CAFE, if you don't care about a 0.5 mpg difference in fuel consumption, wouldn't it be better to use a slightly thicker oil that offers better protection, as recommended by the same manufacturer, for the same vehicle and engine and similar climite; the only difference being it its sold in a different market?
My response is simple: prove it offers "better protection". So far no one has offered any evidence, or even any logical reasoning as to why it would "protect better". Fuel economy has no bearing on my choice of oil, and I'm using 0W20. I made that choice based logic, reason and published data. I really don't care what they use in country XXX, because frankly it just doesn't matter. They have their own reasons for spec'ing oils, and guess what? It involves compromise.
Explain to me why a thicker oil will "protect better", and I'll gladly consider using it. Meanwhile, take a look at this document. Skip over the stuff about fuel economy and go to the parts on engine wear. Note in particular the part about multi-viscosity oils and film strength. Guess what? Thicker oils do not necessarily equate to thicker films in operation.
I'm not trying to change your mind, or anyone that of anyone else. As I said, reason can never stand up to "belief", that curious word an engineer keeps using. It's just that, belief, not backed up by data. Show me some data that thick oils protect better in a modern gasoline engine, or even make a reasonable hypothesis as to why it would (hint: they do it in Germany isn't a reasonable hypothesis). Until then, I'm going to stick with an oil that is proven to reach optimal viscosity more quickly, provide more adequate cooling, provide lower frictional losses and less frictional seal torque, and have thicker film strength at the top of the piston while still providing adequate film strength for the bearings. In my engine, for my conditions, that's a 20W oil.
My point is: if you don't value CAFE, if you don't care about a 0.5 mpg difference in fuel consumption, wouldn't it be better to use a slightly thicker oil that offers better protection, as recommended by the same manufacturer, for the same vehicle and engine and similar climite; the only difference being it its sold in a different market?
My response is simple: prove it offers "better protection". So far no one has offered any evidence, or even any logical reasoning as to why it would "protect better". Fuel economy has no bearing on my choice of oil, and I'm using 0W20. I made that choice based logic, reason and published data. I really don't care what they use in country XXX, because frankly it just doesn't matter. They have their own reasons for spec'ing oils, and guess what? It involves compromise.
Explain to me why a thicker oil will "protect better", and I'll gladly consider using it. Meanwhile, take a look at this document. Skip over the stuff about fuel economy and go to the parts on engine wear. Note in particular the part about multi-viscosity oils and film strength. Guess what? Thicker oils do not necessarily equate to thicker films in operation.
I'm not trying to change your mind, or anyone that of anyone else. As I said, reason can never stand up to "belief", that curious word an engineer keeps using. It's just that, belief, not backed up by data. Show me some data that thick oils protect better in a modern gasoline engine, or even make a reasonable hypothesis as to why it would (hint: they do it in Germany isn't a reasonable hypothesis). Until then, I'm going to stick with an oil that is proven to reach optimal viscosity more quickly, provide more adequate cooling, provide lower frictional losses and less frictional seal torque, and have thicker film strength at the top of the piston while still providing adequate film strength for the bearings. In my engine, for my conditions, that's a 20W oil.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
You could still get 100 PSI oil pressure with a sump full of WD-40 if you have a powerful
enough oil pump, but that doesn't mean your engine isn't gonna burn up in the process.
What grade of oil is WD-40? Also what role due VII's play in this process of protection? Still I am awaiting for you to explain how you have came to the conclusion that us sheeple down here are somehow unable to determine that our choice of oils is inferior to you up there?
You could still get 100 PSI oil pressure with a sump full of WD-40 if you have a powerful
enough oil pump, but that doesn't mean your engine isn't gonna burn up in the process.
What grade of oil is WD-40? Also what role due VII's play in this process of protection? Still I am awaiting for you to explain how you have came to the conclusion that us sheeple down here are somehow unable to determine that our choice of oils is inferior to you up there?
Guys, NEWS JUST IN:
I went and started my old clunker '86 BMW, the one with the hidiously thick 20w50 and guess what? It actually started with the flick of the key and settled into a nice smooth idle!
The old girl has done almost 200K miles and has been fed a steady diet of 20w50 the whole time no doubt
I've got some oil left in the can at home.... When I get home tonight I'm going to lick the inside of the cap to test it. Its about 65F in the evenings here at the moment - it is winter 'down under' after all - so should be a good indication whether its too thick or thin for this climate?
I went and started my old clunker '86 BMW, the one with the hidiously thick 20w50 and guess what? It actually started with the flick of the key and settled into a nice smooth idle!
The old girl has done almost 200K miles and has been fed a steady diet of 20w50 the whole time no doubt
I've got some oil left in the can at home.... When I get home tonight I'm going to lick the inside of the cap to test it. Its about 65F in the evenings here at the moment - it is winter 'down under' after all - so should be a good indication whether its too thick or thin for this climate?
Originally Posted By: dave1251
If you are looking for a one size fits all a 15W-40 PCMO/HDEO should give you the closest HTHS to M-1 0W-40 let me know what is available to you and I will make the recommendation. If this where North America I would be recommending 15W-40 Delvac if I could not be on hand to verify the results.
Thanks Dave. Castrol RX Super is readily available from the auto stores here. Based on the advice from a gentleman who posted early in this thread, I made some enquiries with Caltex, who advised that I can purchase a 5 gallon drum of Delo 400 multigrade from their depot at Rocklea (just a few miles from where I live). Its very cheap at $90 a drum. Do you think this is a good deal?
If you are looking for a one size fits all a 15W-40 PCMO/HDEO should give you the closest HTHS to M-1 0W-40 let me know what is available to you and I will make the recommendation. If this where North America I would be recommending 15W-40 Delvac if I could not be on hand to verify the results.
Thanks Dave. Castrol RX Super is readily available from the auto stores here. Based on the advice from a gentleman who posted early in this thread, I made some enquiries with Caltex, who advised that I can purchase a 5 gallon drum of Delo 400 multigrade from their depot at Rocklea (just a few miles from where I live). Its very cheap at $90 a drum. Do you think this is a good deal?
Originally Posted By: Ranchu
Guys, NEWS JUST IN:
I went and started my old clunker '86 BMW, the one with the hidiously thick 20w50 and guess what? It actually started with the flick of the key and settled into a nice smooth idle!
You mean that 1886 BMW ? That's a classic. They don't make them like that no more.
Quote:
1886 BMW E30 - Valvoline XLD Classic 20W50
Guys, NEWS JUST IN:
I went and started my old clunker '86 BMW, the one with the hidiously thick 20w50 and guess what? It actually started with the flick of the key and settled into a nice smooth idle!
You mean that 1886 BMW ? That's a classic. They don't make them like that no more.
Quote:
1886 BMW E30 - Valvoline XLD Classic 20W50
Then use 20W-50 in all of your cars. Brisbane how can you classify winter in Brisbane?
Originally Posted By: Ranchu
Originally Posted By: dave1251
If you are looking for a one size fits all a 15W-40 PCMO/HDEO should give you the closest HTHS to M-1 0W-40 let me know what is available to you and I will make the recommendation. If this where North America I would be recommending 15W-40 Delvac if I could not be on hand to verify the results.
Thanks Dave. Castrol RX Super is readily available from the auto stores here. Based on the advice from a gentleman who posted early in this thread, I made some enquiries with Caltex, who advised that I can purchase a 5 gallon drum of Delo 400 multigrade from their depot at Rocklea (just a few miles from where I live). Its very cheap at $90 a drum. Do you think this is a good deal?
Define drum because you tell a American oil drum we get the impression of 55 gallons. If that where the case I will be making a flight to Brisbane soon and talk to your Cal/Tex rep.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
If you are looking for a one size fits all a 15W-40 PCMO/HDEO should give you the closest HTHS to M-1 0W-40 let me know what is available to you and I will make the recommendation. If this where North America I would be recommending 15W-40 Delvac if I could not be on hand to verify the results.
Thanks Dave. Castrol RX Super is readily available from the auto stores here. Based on the advice from a gentleman who posted early in this thread, I made some enquiries with Caltex, who advised that I can purchase a 5 gallon drum of Delo 400 multigrade from their depot at Rocklea (just a few miles from where I live). Its very cheap at $90 a drum. Do you think this is a good deal?
Define drum because you tell a American oil drum we get the impression of 55 gallons. If that where the case I will be making a flight to Brisbane soon and talk to your Cal/Tex rep.
Only 5 gallons / 20 litres I'm afraid.
My math is a little of but that is about 21 quarts. So close to 4.25-4.30 a quart which is pretty close to what we pay for oil. Of course I am too lazy to convert Australian dollars to USD but they are very close so you are paying pretty much American off the shelf prices. I am happy this worked out for you.
Originally Posted By: Ranchu
My point is: if you don't value CAFE, if you don't care about a 0.5 mpg difference in fuel consumption, wouldn't it be better to use a slightly thicker oil that offers better protection, as recommended by the same manufacturer, for the same vehicle and engine and similar climite; the only difference being it its sold in a different market?
The evidence of "better" protection is skimpy at best. But, let's assume that a 5w-20 doesn't offer as good protection, even for normal, everyday drivers, as a 5w-40. If an engine is good for 300,000 miles on the 5w-20, how much extra are you getting by going to the 5w-40?
I had vehicles in fleet usage approach and even exceed the 1,000,000 km mark on the original engine with 30 grade dinos, with extended OCIs, back when 10w-30 was considered "too thin."
So, to reverse the question, wouldn't you rather have that 0.5 mpg (or smaller) improvement in fuel economy using a 5w-20, considering your engine will last forever and a day, versus switching to 5w-40 and having it last forever and a week?
If we had engines failing routinely just after warranty (or under it, for that matter), I could see there being a reason to shun the lighter oils. Certainly, they're not for every application, since once size doesn't fit all, but they obviously have their place.
My point is: if you don't value CAFE, if you don't care about a 0.5 mpg difference in fuel consumption, wouldn't it be better to use a slightly thicker oil that offers better protection, as recommended by the same manufacturer, for the same vehicle and engine and similar climite; the only difference being it its sold in a different market?
The evidence of "better" protection is skimpy at best. But, let's assume that a 5w-20 doesn't offer as good protection, even for normal, everyday drivers, as a 5w-40. If an engine is good for 300,000 miles on the 5w-20, how much extra are you getting by going to the 5w-40?
I had vehicles in fleet usage approach and even exceed the 1,000,000 km mark on the original engine with 30 grade dinos, with extended OCIs, back when 10w-30 was considered "too thin."
So, to reverse the question, wouldn't you rather have that 0.5 mpg (or smaller) improvement in fuel economy using a 5w-20, considering your engine will last forever and a day, versus switching to 5w-40 and having it last forever and a week?
If we had engines failing routinely just after warranty (or under it, for that matter), I could see there being a reason to shun the lighter oils. Certainly, they're not for every application, since once size doesn't fit all, but they obviously have their place.
Originally Posted By: Ranchu
Its very cheap at $90 a drum. Do you think this is a good deal?
I don't know what Dave thinks, but I think it's a good deal, particularly given Australian oil prices. And, it's a quality oil, suitable for your application.
Its very cheap at $90 a drum. Do you think this is a good deal?
I don't know what Dave thinks, but I think it's a good deal, particularly given Australian oil prices. And, it's a quality oil, suitable for your application.
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