Alfa Romeo 75 - Racing Car - AGIP/ENI advice request

Messages
23
Location
The Netherlands
Hi all,

I didn’t find an introduction topic. So apologies for going straight into posting questions. If I missed the introduction topic, please let me know and I will properly introduce myself.

On topic: currently I’m looking for engine oil for a racing car. I could do with some advice. Let me start off by providing you with some information:

Car
The car is an Alfa Romeo 75 2.0 Twin Spark (1991). I recently purchased the car and have very limited information about it's past and maintanance history. It has been used as a track-day car for at least the last 8 years. Before that it was a road car. The total mileage on the car is 188.000 km (117.000 mi). It has been slightly modified externally (open air intake, stainless racing exhaust, modified ECU). I do not know if there have been any modifications made internally. The engine, to my knowledge, is made from aluminium. And older Alfa Romeo’s tend to sweat a bit all around the block, as does mine.

Owner manual
The owner manual states the following:
Cerifications:
SAE S E
ASTM S E
API SF

Recommended engine oils from the owners manual:
AGIP Sint 2000 10W/40
Alternative: Shell Super Plus Motor Oil 15W/50

Environment / usage
I’m from the Netherlands so the car will be used in varying conditions (wet/dry) from about 10 C (50F) to 35 C (95F). It is unlikely to be driven on track during winter times (below 50F) but it will be moved inside/outside the storage/garage to get to other cars. So it will see cold starts from time to time.

As it is a track-car it will be driven hard. Also, the car will stand still for multiple months at some point, before it is driven again.

Options
So this is where I would love your expert advice. The oil prescribed by the manufacturer (AGIP Sint 2000 10W40) is no longer available, as AGIP has transitioned into ENI. The replacement oil is Eni i-Sint 10W40. Which seems to be the same oil as the latest version of AGIP Sint 2000 10W40 that was produced. So, sticking with this oil seems like a very good option. (Link to: spec sheet)

Since this car will only be driven on track for the foreseeable future (in the semi-distant future we might drive it to the Nordschleife, but currently it will only be transported on a trailer), using a racing oil seems more suitable. So, sticking as close a possible to the OEM oil, but upgrading it to a racing oil, provides me with the following option: Eni Sport 10W60 (Link to: spec sheet).

Advice request
However, this is where things become a bit unclear/weird to me as an oil-noob. I read a beginners’ guide on this website and as I understand, the lower the viscosity, the better (all other things being equal). However, the viscosity of the 10W40 oil is lower at both low and high temperatures compared to the 10W60 oil. I was under the impression that the 10W60 oil would at least have a lower viscosity under higher temperatures. So, either I am not understanding what is going on here (most likely scenario) or there is something weird going on with this particular 10W40 vs 10W60 comparison.

Could someone shed a light?

Would this 10W60 oil be a good choice for my application (also considering additives/non-viscocity specifications)?

The reason I prefer to stick to ENI (AGIP) in this case (and not switch to Castrol/Mobil 1/Shell etc.) is twofold. Firstly, it is the recommended brand for this particular model. Secondly, Alfa Romeo and AGIP have a longstanding history together and most engines Alfa Romeo built (at least in the 80s and 90s, to my knowledge) have been developed with AGIP oil. I am not married to the idea of using ENI, it just makes sense to me. I would love to hear your thoughts on this as well.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read my post.
 
Messages
3,854
Location
Slovenia EU
Their ultra range is made out of GTL base..waaay better than your semisyn ENI-i 10W-40 .

Shell has also 10w60 oil in their portfolio...
 
Messages
46
Hi all,

I didn’t find an introduction topic. So apologies for going straight into posting questions. If I missed the introduction topic, please let me know and I will properly introduce myself.

On topic: currently I’m looking for engine oil for a racing car. I could do with some advice. Let me start off by providing you with some information:

Car
The car is an Alfa Romeo 75 2.0 Twin Spark (1991). I recently purchased the car and have very limited information about it's past and maintanance history. It has been used as a track-day car for at least the last 8 years. Before that it was a road car. The total mileage on the car is 188.000 km (117.000 mi). It has been slightly modified externally (open air intake, stainless racing exhaust, modified ECU). I do not know if there have been any modifications made internally. The engine, to my knowledge, is made from aluminium. And older Alfa Romeo’s tend to sweat a bit all around the block, as does mine.

Owner manual
The owner manual states the following:
Cerifications:
SAE S E
ASTM S E
API SF

Recommended engine oils from the owners manual:
AGIP Sint 2000 10W/40
Alternative: Shell Super Plus Motor Oil 15W/50

Environment / usage
I’m from the Netherlands so the car will be used in varying conditions (wet/dry) from about 10 C (50F) to 35 C (95F). It is unlikely to be driven on track during winter times (below 50F) but it will be moved inside/outside the storage/garage to get to other cars. So it will see cold starts from time to time.

As it is a track-car it will be driven hard. Also, the car will stand still for multiple months at some point, before it is driven again.

Options
So this is where I would love your expert advice. The oil prescribed by the manufacturer (AGIP Sint 2000 10W40) is no longer available, as AGIP has transitioned into ENI. The replacement oil is Eni i-Sint 10W40. Which seems to be the same oil as the latest version of AGIP Sint 2000 10W40 that was produced. So, sticking with this oil seems like a very good option. (Link to: spec sheet)

Since this car will only be driven on track for the foreseeable future (in the semi-distant future we might drive it to the Nordschleife, but currently it will only be transported on a trailer), using a racing oil seems more suitable. So, sticking as close a possible to the OEM oil, but upgrading it to a racing oil, provides me with the following option: Eni Sport 10W60 (Link to: spec sheet).

Advice request
However, this is where things become a bit unclear/weird to me as an oil-noob. I read a beginners’ guide on this website and as I understand, the lower the viscosity, the better (all other things being equal). However, the viscosity of the 10W40 oil is lower at both low and high temperatures compared to the 10W60 oil. I was under the impression that the 10W60 oil would at least have a lower viscosity under higher temperatures. So, either I am not understanding what is going on here (most likely scenario) or there is something weird going on with this particular 10W40 vs 10W60 comparison.

Could someone shed a light?

Would this 10W60 oil be a good choice for my application (also considering additives/non-viscocity specifications)?

The reason I prefer to stick to ENI (AGIP) in this case (and not switch to Castrol/Mobil 1/Shell etc.) is twofold. Firstly, it is the recommended brand for this particular model. Secondly, Alfa Romeo and AGIP have a longstanding history together and most engines Alfa Romeo built (at least in the 80s and 90s, to my knowledge) have been developed with AGIP oil. I am not married to the idea of using ENI, it just makes sense to me. I would love to hear your thoughts on this as well.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read my post.
8V TS are bulletproof. Castrol 10w40 or alternatively Castrol or Motul10w60 if oil pressure drops on idle. Mind, 10w60 will stole some power. MANN filter or MAHLE. Proper oil cooler should be installed. Have fun. Great cars those 75 are.
 
Messages
1,321
Location
Brittany / Canada
Total Quartz 10W50 seems like a perfect replacement for these engines. A friend of mine ran that in his 1,6 Twin spark Alfa with good success.

I may be wrong but the twin spark engine was developed under the Fiat era, and so Selenia (now Petronas) would be the preferred oil. No reason to stick with Agip/Eni, unless you like the inconvenience of having to source it (but maybe that's easy for you, don't know). Just some leftover of Alfa previous business agreement.

Depending on the racing you do with these cars, I'll avoid a 10W60 and stick to a 40 grade or a light 50 (like the Total, or the Shell mentioned above). The Barchetta in my sig has a similar engine (no twin spark head but many shared parts, like the same camshaft phase variator) and seems to like Total Quartz 9000 Energy (the energy is important) 5W40, Total 10W50, or the Motul 300V line the best.

I know many seem to run 10W60 oil in these engines, Selenia racing being the prefered oil for the Alfa V6, but I really don't feel that applies to the 4 cylinders of the Fiat modular series, with sometimes reports of worn camshaft and hydraulic lifters. That's a somewhat unknown subject, with many owners putting thick oils and then short tripping their cars, or not respecting warming up delays, or simply just not respecting the OCI (20000Km is a bit crazy on the long term)...so YMMV.


Edit: I'm referring to 16V twin spark engines, I feel like I answered inappropriately then, not the same engine. I failed to see the 1991 date, my bad 😰
(did the 16V ever made it to the 75?)
 

HMCS_Roland

Thread starter
Messages
23
Location
The Netherlands
8V TS are bulletproof. Castrol 10w40 or alternatively Castrol or Motul10w60 if oil pressure drops on idle. Mind, 10w60 will stole some power. MANN filter or MAHLE. Proper oil cooler should be installed. Have fun. Great cars those 75 are.
They are bulletproof! And for sure great fun to drive.

Thanks for the feedback. I have a MANN filter being shipped at this moment. So I got that covered.

Will the 10W60 make it lose power because it's less viscous? Because in that case, why is racing oil mostly 60 instead of 40?
 
Messages
46
Total Quartz 10W50 seems like a perfect replacement for these engines. A friend of mine ran that in his 1,6 Twin spark Alfa with good success.

I may be wrong but the twin spark engine was developed under the Fiat era, and so Selenia (now Petronas) would be the preferred oil. No reason to stick with Agip/Eni, unless you like the inconvenience of having to source it (but maybe that's easy for you, don't know). Just some leftover of Alfa previous business agreement.

Depending on the racing you do with these cars, I'll avoid a 10W60 and stick to a 40 grade or a light 50 (like the Total, or the Shell mentioned above). The Barchetta in my sig has a similar engine (no twin spark head but many shared parts, like the same camshaft phase variator) and seems to like Total Quartz 9000 Energy (the energy is important) 5W40, Total 10W50, or the Motul 300V line the best.

I know many seem to run 10W60 oil in these engines, Selenia racing being the prefered oil for the Alfa V6, but I really don't feel that applies to the 4 cylinders of the Fiat modular series, with sometimes reports of worn camshaft and hydraulic lifters. That's a somewhat unknown subject, with many owners putting thick oils and then short tripping their cars, or not respecting warming up delays, or simply just not respecting the OCI (20000Km is a bit crazy on the long term)...so YMMV.


Edit: I'm referring to 16V twin spark engines, I feel like I answered inappropriately then, not the same engine. I failed to see the 1991 date, my bad 😰
Popsy, 8v TS is original AR Nord, all alloy, with TS head. It does not relate to FIAT in any way.
 
Messages
2,365
Location
Virginia
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 should be the same as Pennzoil Euro 5W-40...

Mid Saps (Sulpher, ash, phosphorus), so not tough on the catalytic converter...
 
Messages
46
They are bulletproof! And for sure great fun to drive.

Thanks for the feedback. I have a MANN filter being shipped at this moment. So I got that covered.

Will the 10W60 make it lose power because it's less viscous? Because in that case, why is racing oil mostly 60 instead of 40?
It is MORE viscous. What you should do is measure oil pressure at idle after track session. If adequate and per OEM specifications , there is no need do up for a 60w.
 

HMCS_Roland

Thread starter
Messages
23
Location
The Netherlands
Edit: I'm referring to 16V twin spark engines, I feel like I answered inappropriately then, not the same engine. I failed to see the 1991 date, my bad 😰
(did the 16V ever made it to the 75?)
Correct. Although it is still interesting because my buddy races a 155 2.0 16v and he uses 10W60 oil. Might have to look into your points a bit more, may be time for him to switch back to 10W40.

Thanks for the reply. Not married to the 10W60, so I might head down the 10W40 direction myself. Will gather some more opinions.
 

HMCS_Roland

Thread starter
Messages
23
Location
The Netherlands
It is MORE viscous. What you should do is measure oil pressure at idle after track session. If adequate and per OEM specifications , there is no need do up for a 60w.
Thanks Kristian. Will do the idle pressure check once I selected an oil to double check if it's within spec.

I understand the drop in oil pressure if it's more viscous. But why would engine power drop?
 
Messages
46
Thanks Kristian. Will do the idle pressure check once I selected an oil to double check if it's within spec.

I understand the drop in oil pressure if it's more viscous. But why would engine power drop?
Drag is bigger with thicker oil, you will notice that.
 
Messages
1,321
Location
Brittany / Canada
Correct. Although it is still interesting because my buddy races a 155 2.0 16v and he uses 10W60 oil. Might have to look into your points a bit more, may be time for him to switch back to 10W40.

Thanks for the reply. Not married to the 10W60, so I might head down the 10W40 direction myself. Will gather some more opinions.
Like I said, the Total 10W50 could be the perfect middle. It's cheap, has a standard/good add pack. It's mostly gr 3 with a bit of PAO. Better than most semi-synth 10W40 out there.
(I don't have any shares with Total, lol)
 
Messages
5,538
Location
down in the park
Alfa romeo wanted you to use a 10w-40 because at the time, 5w-40 or any xw-30 could have a HTHS viscosity below 3.5cP.

Any A3/B4 oil will do you really, but the smaller the viscosity spread the thicker the base oil is going to be and the more shear stable the oil becomes. I would look for a high flashpoint in any A3/B4 oil, also an indication of higher quality base oils. Flash point is found in every data sheet aswell.
 
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