Air Filter Test

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Dec 7, 2003
Messages
4
Location
Indiana
About the air filter test shown on this site, please consider the following:

A "high flow" air filter may produce a significant reduction in the pressure drop across the filter on one car and may not produce much of an effect on another. It is my opinion that they probably do very little for most cars, but to determine that they don't do anything on all cars may be inaccurate. Here is why. A lot of cars use similar sized panel filters. Example - my
4.0 Aurora V8 and 3.8 series II V6 (Impala) use the same size panel. I think GM's 3.1 is about the same size panel filter as well.

However, not all cars "breath" the same. Clearly, the much higher revving larger
displacement 4.0 V8 will be pulling more air (volume) at the top end than the other engines mentioned. Now, please be aware that the "losses" experienced through the filter are a function of the air velocity to an exponent
(probably squared or close to it ^2). So as the approach velocity increases, the losses across the filter increase EXPONENTIALLY. Also
consider that with most cars, the entire filter area is NOT utilized due to the design of the air box. Most often, a SMALL FRACTION of the filter area is used thus increasing the velocity through the filter. This is done to minimize resonations in the intake and keep operation quiet for the general public's desires. Sure, a full flowing box that uses the entire filter area could be designed that uses double wall construction for sound insulation and the approach and exit flow paths could be extended for a smooth expansion of the flow approach and exit to truly utilize the flow area but that would be expensive if not impractical for design. So, for some cars, V^2 may not amount to much even under top rpms at WOT, but on others is may be significantly more.

Additionally, the pressure drop across the filter is also a function of some constant, or "K" to multiply the V^2 portion of the loss equation. From the simplest demonstrations (yes K&N demo) it can be seen that for a constant flow rate across the same filter area, the K&N type media has a lower loss coefficient - a lower "K" value to be multiplied by the V^2 portion of the equation. So, with some cars (probably most or many IMHO) a moderate or lower approach velocity squared (^2) multiplied by the higher "K" coefficient of a paper filter will not be much more than that for a free flow media. But it is entirely possible that with some cars, the higher approach velocity squared is significant and multiplying it by the lower coefficient may help.

Also, (just an additional thought - not really sure on this) as the velocity through the filter media itself actually increases, the "K" loss coefficient might itself change. Thus giving more advantage to a free flowing media. I see this in practice with losses through various elements. The loss coeficient will be accurate only for a given flow velocity range. Higher velocities require a different coefficient.

Therefore, I submit to you that while many cars may not perform or "breath" enough to create a high intake velocity and experience the steep portion of the pressure drop curve, some probably do and could benefit from a free flowing media - due to the reasons explained above.

The tests shown on this site used a manometer to measure the pressure drop and I suspect that the tubing used was long tubing to extend from the engine compartment to the cabin - my guess. If so, that could easily be too long for a manometer to function accurately. It's in the engineering books. Perhaps the compressible nature of the air in the tube oven an extended length could dampen and skew the results. I also question
the effect of under-hood temperatures on the manometer tube/air. Also, the placement of the manometer in the air box could be critical. I think the air flow in the box could be quite turbulent and placing the tube in an "eddy" location could skew results.

In short, even if this test was performed flawlessly, it is not likely representative of all cars in any way.

Like the guy that did these tests, I'm an engineer. I have a professional engineers license in Illinois and Indiana and have practiced for 14 years. Not to be nasty, but I would have also known better (even if not an engineer) that tests performed on a filter to test filtering efficiency (as shown on this site) must be done by weight under strictly controlled
conditions with the weight of the dirt fed to the filter known and the weight captured known. I'd
never offer a visual test as evidence of anything at all. No, I don't work for an air filter company or an automotive company. I work for a
consulting engineering firm and do a lot of municipal infrastructure work.

By the way, I've used a K&N type filter for a couple of years. I've sent several oil samples in for analysis and the dirt and wear numbers have been extremely low, so I'm pretty confident that my intake filtering is fine. Also, I've dyno'd (back to back same day) a K&N on an Aurora on several different visits and always saw a consistent +6 to +7 HP increase at the wheels
- every time consistently. Admittedly it was top end only and probably proves that if my car had a little less displacement or revved a bit lower (not red-line at 6200 but say 5600), maybe I'd have seen little gain at all. Again, some cars may see a gain on the top end, many others won't see anything.

I'm just afraid that there is a lot of well-meaning experimenting going on without being aware of the myriad of variables. Some possibly inaccurate and definitely broad based conclusions are being made as well.
 
First,

Welcome Snowman!

welcome.gif


Good arugments, I am going to move this to the air filter section.

Dan
 
Simplified a bit...?

If your stock filter/air box allows enough air flow to meet your engines needs under max throttle/high rpm; then an aftermarket setup will offer no gains in hp.

If the filter/airbox is a restriction, THEN horsepower gains may be a possibility...?

I know that on my Integra GSR, there IS a noticeable gain in power at very high rpm when using a K&N cone type filter. I assume that at 6500 rpm+ full throttle the factory airbox/filter is somewhat restrictive...

What about intake tract resonance / tuning effects? IE length/diameter, stepped diameters etc.
 
I have used K&N's on most of the vehicles I have owned, and I defend them regularly, as I have never experienced any negative effects from their use. But I think that the air filter test was very interesting and informative, and although not perfect, was a very good effort on behalf of the author who did everything himself, on his own vehicle, with no outside help or funding.
 
There's nothing wrong with a bit of anecdotal evidence. My favorite (in a sad way) was when an engineer (can't remember his name) stood infront of the Challenger investigation board, took a piece of the SRB o-ring out of ice water, compressed it with pliers and showed it didn't recover. A very clear demonstration of why the o-ring failed to seal the hot gasses at 900 PSI in the SRB.

The anecdote that got me to thinking about cotton fiber air filters was where one of our members reported sprinkling sand on top of the cotton fiber air filter and noting that a small percentage passed through the media. (Right after reading that one, I switched back to paper media air filter, I'll have to try that experiment sometime myself.)

One interesting design issue that can be noted through simple observation is that cotton fiber air filters have signifigantly less surface area than paper filters. The screen-cotton fiber-screen construction creates a rather thick media, it's just not possible to pack as much filter in the same given space as a paper media. I estimate the cotton fiber filters have 1/3 the actual filter area compaired to paper (by simple pleat count).

There's nothing wrong with simple experiments. There was a recent post about blowing into an oil filter to determine if the ADB valve was working. It may sound silly, but the test struck me as a good common sense way of evaluating ADB valves. I could easily see a manufacturer developing QC specs such as "apply compressed air at XX inches of water pressure to the filter outlet port, the leakage shall be less than XX cc per minute.

Yes, we need numbers, but we also need common sense. Good science is a blend of the two. I salute our members that get their hands dirty, run tests and report the results.

Welcome to the board.
smile.gif
 
quote:

There's nothing wrong with simple experiments.

But what if the wrong conclusions are drawn?

Anyone can test anything they want but knowing how to interpret the test results is another thing. What is see is not always what you get.
 
quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
About the air filter test shown on this site, please consider the following:

A "high flow" air filter may produce a significant reduction in the pressure drop across the filter on one car and may not produce much of an effect on another. It is my opinion that they probably do very little for most cars, but to determine that they don't do anything on all cars may be inaccurate. Here is why. A lot of cars use similar sized panel filters. Example - my
4.0 Aurora V8 and 3.8 series II V6 (Impala) use the same size panel. I think GM's 3.1 is about the same size panel filter as well.

However, not all cars "breath" the same. Clearly, the much higher revving larger
displacement 4.0 V8 will be pulling more air (volume) at the top end than the other engines mentioned. Now, please be aware that the "losses" experienced through the filter are a function of the air velocity to an exponent
(probably squared or close to it ^2). So as the approach velocity increases, the losses across the filter increase EXPONENTIALLY. Also
consider that with most cars, the entire filter area is NOT utilized due to the design of the air box. Most often, a SMALL FRACTION of the filter area is used thus increasing the velocity through the filter. This is done to minimize resonations in the intake and keep operation quiet for the general public's desires. Sure, a full flowing box that uses the entire filter area could be designed that uses double wall construction for sound insulation and the approach and exit flow paths could be extended for a smooth expansion of the flow approach and exit to truly utilize the flow area but that would be expensive if not impractical for design. So, for some cars, V^2 may not amount to much even under top rpms at WOT, but on others is may be significantly more.

Additionally, the pressure drop across the filter is also a function of some constant, or "K" to multiply the V^2 portion of the loss equation. From the simplest demonstrations (yes K&N demo) it can be seen that for a constant flow rate across the same filter area, the K&N type media has a lower loss coefficient - a lower "K" value to be multiplied by the V^2 portion of the equation. So, with some cars (probably most or many IMHO) a moderate or lower approach velocity squared (^2) multiplied by the higher "K" coefficient of a paper filter will not be much more than that for a free flow media. But it is entirely possible that with some cars, the higher approach velocity squared is significant and multiplying it by the lower coefficient may help.

Also, (just an additional thought - not really sure on this) as the velocity through the filter media itself actually increases, the "K" loss coefficient might itself change. Thus giving more advantage to a free flowing media. I see this in practice with losses through various elements. The loss coeficient will be accurate only for a given flow velocity range. Higher velocities require a different coefficient.

Therefore, I submit to you that while many cars may not perform or "breath" enough to create a high intake velocity and experience the steep portion of the pressure drop curve, some probably do and could benefit from a free flowing media - due to the reasons explained above.

The tests shown on this site used a manometer to measure the pressure drop and I suspect that the tubing used was long tubing to extend from the engine compartment to the cabin - my guess. If so, that could easily be too long for a manometer to function accurately. It's in the engineering books. Perhaps the compressible nature of the air in the tube oven an extended length could dampen and skew the results. I also question
the effect of under-hood temperatures on the manometer tube/air. Also, the placement of the manometer in the air box could be critical. I think the air flow in the box could be quite turbulent and placing the tube in an "eddy" location could skew results.

In short, even if this test was performed flawlessly, it is not likely representative of all cars in any way.

Like the guy that did these tests, I'm an engineer. I have a professional engineers license in Illinois and Indiana and have practiced for 14 years. Not to be nasty, but I would have also known better (even if not an engineer) that tests performed on a filter to test filtering efficiency (as shown on this site) must be done by weight under strictly controlled
conditions with the weight of the dirt fed to the filter known and the weight captured known. I'd
never offer a visual test as evidence of anything at all. No, I don't work for an air filter company or an automotive company. I work for a
consulting engineering firm and do a lot of municipal infrastructure work.

By the way, I've used a K&N type filter for a couple of years. I've sent several oil samples in for analysis and the dirt and wear numbers have been extremely low, so I'm pretty confident that my intake filtering is fine. Also, I've dyno'd (back to back same day) a K&N on an Aurora on several different visits and always saw a consistent +6 to +7 HP increase at the wheels
- every time consistently. Admittedly it was top end only and probably proves that if my car had a little less displacement or revved a bit lower (not red-line at 6200 but say 5600), maybe I'd have seen little gain at all. Again, some cars may see a gain on the top end, many others won't see anything.

I'm just afraid that there is a lot of well-meaning experimenting going on without being aware of the myriad of variables. Some possibly inaccurate and definitely broad based conclusions are being made as well.


snowman, thanks for your input. I've recieved much input, and many opinions.

I want to go with one quote of yours.

quote:

Now, please be aware that the "losses" experienced through the filter are a function of the air velocity to an exponent
(probably squared or close to it ^2).


Now as one engineer to another, I can tell you for a fact that head loss is exactly proportional to velocity squared. It isn't close. This is a mathematical fact long quantified by our friend and mentor Bernoulli. You are the 2nd or maybe the same "engineer" that is questioning my testing that isn't sure of this relationship. Before you go questioning someone's simple test, maybe you should brush up on some simple facts.

The facts are this:

1) If the OEM engineers backed by their millions of dollars did their homework, the stock air filter is adequately sized for the engine airflow demand. If this is the case, a high flow air filter will net you nothing.

2) Almost all of the factory air filters for a given airbox offer more surface area than a K&N replacement. This more than makes up for any differences in media flow rate. Of course cotton gauze flows more than paper. Cotton gauze also filters less. Flow and filtration are inversely proportional.

3) Yes I should've weighed the filters before and after, but didn't think to until the testing was well under way. If you think visual color testing is invalid though, you should refer yourself to the field of chemistry where color comparators and even shades of color comparison are all the rage. Ever use one for a fish tank test kit maybe?

4) The manometer used was used properly and adequately. Maybe before you invoke the powers of capillary action, you should look into manometers yourself and study up on Paschal's law. The pressures seem in a real world test are so small in absolute value that most pressure gages do not have a chance of making such measurement at all. The manometer is actually perfect for this test.

5) While you may not like to admit it, my water manometer is a more accurate and better instrument than a chassis dyno especially when it comes to measuring horsepower. The water manometer directly measures pressure, your chassis dyno infers what horsepower might actually be from about 1000 other random variables, none of which are held constant. Then you are slave to the software the dyno shop is running and the coding of that software. A chassis dyno is a tool and not a very good one. For dyno charts showing no gain with K&N air filters, go to ls1.com.

Lastly, there is a world of difference between "possibly inaccurate" and "innacurate." In effect, you are admitting that you do not know if the test is valid. Your statements are purely misleading. I have been waiting nigh on one year now for a single experiment conducted by anyone that shows my testing was or is invalid. To date there have been zero done. If my experiment were that far off, K&N could use their corporate might and attorneys on retainer and shut me up permanently in minutes. I can't afford to make the statements I have unless there is some validity in them. K&N has sent me e-mails stating their case. I still don't buy it. They have also not taken me up on my offer for further research. I don't have the funds to do an SAE standard test or I would. I'd also report the findings no matter what the results are. I don't care if vaseline coated pantyhose are the best filter. What I do resent is the opinion that the simple experiment is fatally flawed without the presentation of some evidence to show that it is flawed.

You like K&Ns. They work for you. Great. I don't use them anymore. I actually got the idea for this experiment from an automotive enthusiast who most assuredly is not an engineer! I think that in itself is a huge plus. I think many engineers get so wrapped up in technology and math that they forget to think. You give a man a slide rule and a sheet of paper and he can build a rocket and put a man on the moon. You give him computers, experiments, tons of research, more money than he can shake a stick at, and he blows up the space shuttle. Old engineers had to think for themselves and didn't have software packages and oodles of references to rely on and use as a crutch.

And here are my broad sweeping generalizations in black and white. Until they are proven wrong by someone (anyone), I will continue to profess them as true.

1. Flow and filtration are inversely proportional.

2. The only way to add total flow in mechanical filtration is to increase the size of the filter or reduce its ability to filter.

It really is that simple.

And for the record, you have both been engineers longer than I have. My father has no degree, but is still the best engineer I have ever met, hands down.
 
offtopic.gif
Anthony, You say that filtration and flow are inversely proportional.............Do you think that applies to oil filters as well? Do you think that media construction and type plays an important role?.....such as the synthetic media used in fleetguard, donaldson, and the ac delco ultraguard filters?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom