AGM Battery Boil Fumes

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Location
Erie, PA
Bought an auction car with a 10/2021 date code group 65 AGM battery. On the way home both my backup driver, and myself breathed in a "boiled potato chip" smell. It did not smell like a lead acid battery where it would have a sulfer smell. This was a dirty kitchen restraunt smell, hence we did not catch this issue quickly. There are also stinky factories on the way home further compounding our issue.

How dangerous is this? What were we breathing?

On a second note, why to AGM batteries fail like this. A lead acid batter can go 5 - 6 hrs and by the time you get home they are still just as stone dead as they were when you jump started the car. This AGM not only recovered, but allowed the alternator to just keep on charging it to oblivion. Is this because older charging systems are not regulated for AGM?
 
You don't say how old the car is or if it was intended to have an AGM battery.

AGM batteries do not like being overcharged.
The battery "did not allow" the alternator to overcharge it.
The battery would not have a way to stop it.
Cars with AGM batteries should have a BMS...battery management system.
The BMS controls the battery charging.
 
Its a 2010 crown vic. Motorola alternator with PCM control. It does not have a BMS system. Alternator was blistering hot, and so was battery. New battery installed and alt is now cooler than the engine, and battery is ice cold. Had them run the diagnostics when I replaced the battery and it passed perfectly.

If this matters the diehard agm battery was dead flat since 2022. Had to jump it. It was not frozen as when we had it out, the case was still good, and was actually starting to buldge under pressure.
 
You don't say how old the car is or if it was intended to have an AGM battery.

AGM batteries do not like being overcharged.
The battery "did not allow" the alternator to overcharge it.
The battery would not have a way to stop it.
Cars with AGM batteries should have a BMS...battery management system.
The BMS controls the battery charging.
So how does one know if their vehicle has a BMS?

I asked East Penn if I could put AGMs in my 2015 PSD and they looked it up and said yes. Just not sure where one can look these things up.
 
So how does one know if their vehicle has a BMS?

BMS (battery management system) is for lithium batteries and it's in the battery, not the vehicle.

On a second note, why to AGM batteries fail like this. A lead acid batter can go 5 - 6 hrs and by the time you get home they are still just as stone dead as they were when you jump started the car. This AGM not only recovered, but allowed the alternator to just keep on charging it to oblivion. Is this because older charging systems are not regulated for AGM?

AGMs have lower resistance and will draw more current from a charging system unless the voltage is set lower in the regulator. That higher current could damage either the battery or the charging system components.

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Interesting. Now we've two identical acronyms with somewhat different meanings.

Battery Monitoring System evidently monitors the battery from the vehicle.

Battery Management System manages the battery from inside the battery.

1728669085170.webp
 
Crown Vics do NOT have what fordtechmakuloco is demonstrating. Most of fords 2013+ cars do. But they come with conventional batteries. I noticed ford provides AGM batteries on vehicles that have auto start stop.
 
Interesting. Now we've two identical acronyms with somewhat different meanings.

Battery Monitoring System evidently monitors the battery from the vehicle.

Battery Management System manages the battery from inside the battery.

Ford doesn't seem to use the "Monitoring" term themselves; maybe that's just what the YT guy chose to christen it himself.


Either way, in a general sense, they both refer to the overall management of the battery, whether it's integrated, or external. And in all the contexts I'm familiar with, that's how it's understood.

And essential in 12v automotive applications, where the typical cell lead-acid voltage is ~2V, whereas typical lithium cells are nominally in the 3V range. Lithium batteries intended for such applications must have an onboard BMS to function as expected in a 12V system.
 
Ford, in the owner's manual, refers to it as a "Battery Managment System".
The "monitor" is part of the system.
 
Either way, in a general sense, they both refer to the overall management of the battery, whether it's integrated, or external. And in all the contexts I'm familiar with, that's how it's understood.

Can an external BMS have much control over the battery itself as compared to a BMS integrated into the battery? After watching the video from your link I got the impression that it monitors the battery while managing accessories and charging. Whereas the BMS in the battery actively prevents damage to the battery and has no influence on accessories or charging. They seem antipodal.
 
So how does one know if their vehicle has a BMS?

I asked East Penn if I could put AGMs in my 2015 PSD and they looked it up and said yes. Just not sure where one can look these things up.
I'm not sure where an AGM wouldn't work. I had one in an 1978 Ferrari 308 GTS for years...no issues. I have one currently in a 23 yo BMW currently at 5.5 years, with no issues. Both cars came with flooded batteries as oem. My current Ferrari is a 15 yo one...it came from the factory with an AGM battery and does not have an BMS. In fact earlier years of the same car had flooded batteries...they just decided to use AGM for the last couple years of production. While a BMS may maximize battery life, it clearly is not required.
 
Can an external BMS have much control over the battery itself as compared to a BMS integrated into the battery? After watching the video from your link I got the impression that it monitors the battery while managing accessories and charging. Whereas the BMS in the battery actively prevents damage to the battery and has no influence on accessories or charging. They seem antipodal.

I didn't even realize there was a (blocked) video on the Ford site.

Ultimately, they both "manage" the battery, but in two different contexts. One macro, one micro.

The macro, holistic system Ford is using, where the vehicle's central computer adjusts to battery condition by shutting down different systems, isn't a new concept, but more advanced in execution than those of 10, 20, 30 years ago, which would shut off things like dome lights after a pre-set period to not kill the battery. The modern Ford system is smarter, and draws from more data, but the battery being managed is still a conventional 12V lead acid battery.

When I see BMS referenced, I first think of the systems in electronic devices, like cell phones, which have some computing power and utilize lithium cells, which require active management to keep them, and their users safe.

Lithium batteries will sustain permanent damage if they are overcharged, or drained beyond a minimum voltage, and given their energy density, carry a higher risk potential if they are abused, or something goes wrong. One can get raw lithium cells, for use in things like flashlights, and vapes, but it's incumbent upon the user to act as the "BMS" in such applications, monitoring their voltage, and keeping the cells within the safe, happy range. The manufacturers recognize that, do not directly sell such cells to unintended users, and also plaster warnings over them.

The lithium car batteries that have come on the scene must have onboard BMS systems, to enable them to act like conventional 12V lead acid batteries, for conventional 12V vehicle electrical systems, and to make the lithium cells compatible with being charged with 3x the expected voltage, produced by a vehicle alternator.

One way to look them is like the fly-by-wire systems in aircraft which are inherently unstable, and need constant computer management to allow them to fly safely, something a pilot would not be able to achieve manually. They insulate the user, interpret the control inputs and translate them to the needed actions, and keep everything hunky dory and as intended.

Porsche has offered low capacity, lightweight lithium car batteries for special (racing) applications for a while.

But VAG has moved to lithium batteries as regular duty batteries, seen in their high end SUVs like the Lamborghini Urus, Porsche Cayennes, and the like.

Those batteries have onboard BMSes, and given the presence of repair services tailored to them, have not been entirely trouble free, but given a choice between a $500 repair of the BMS, or a new OE battery that lists for $4500, or $2000, respectively, one option is going to be more attractive than the other.
 
I didn't even realize there was a (blocked) video on the Ford site.

Yep. It mainly says the BMS shuts off lights and USB ports after a preset time, which is independent of the battery condition, although it may turn them off sooner if the system detects low battery voltage. If the engine is running and it detects low voltage it will limit occupant's ability to use accessories in order to divert more juice to the battery. And that appears to be the extent of its management.

I could probably wire up something like that on any car: if the voltage is lower than X then cut the power. Not so advanced compared to its engine management where it juggles a cornucopia of variables to maximize efficiency and minimize pollution. It's really more of a battery monitor, but perhaps the marketing department decided "management" sounded better. Honestly, the fact that its so-called BMS is delineated from the rest of its intelligent management hints of some desperation from a marketing perspective.

In this video you can see the BMS is completely oblivious that the battery is being charged if the clamp is placed on the wrong side of the sensor. Video should be cued up:



In contrast an internal BMS manages individual cells within the battery to maximize longevity, takes temperature of the battery into consideration with respect to charge/discharge rate, guards against shorts and over/undercharge, and some even sport a bluetooth app to display battery conditions on a phone. It does more than just act as a DC-DC converter to adjust voltage for a 12v system; it actually manages practically every aspect of the battery.

Antigravity batteries offer a RE-START feature which reserves some charge in the battery so that even though the battery can otherwise be completely dead, enough will always be in reserve to start the engine and drive home. It's like "reserve" on a gas tank. https://antigravitybatteries.com/productline/starter-batteries/restart-oem/

When I see BMS referenced, I first think of the systems in electronic devices, like cell phones, which have some computing power and utilize lithium cells, which require active management to keep them, and their users safe.

My phone has a BMS that I can turn on or off. All it does is stop charging for a while once the battery level gets to 80% to allow the battery time to cool before resuming charging to 100%. According to IEEE, lithium batteries have the most cycle life when oscillated between 60% and 80%, roughly.

It also has a "battery saver" that I disable because it meddles with the proper functioning of apps.

The manufacturers recognize that, do not directly sell such cells to unintended users, and also plaster warnings over them.

Manufacturers usually include or offer the chargers though. Unless one is shorting batteries or submerging in water for likes on youtube videos then lithium batteries seem mostly uneventful. I have various optics, flashlights, cameras that function basically like a cell phone with a battery status display and usb port for charging.

One caveat to that is a couple identical laptops I had that both suffered a swollen battery pack at the same time on the same day. The keyboard and touchpad started rising up slowly. I called the power company but they scratched their heads and shrugged their shoulders. Meanwhile older laptops and cell phones emerged unscathed. That experience made me want to inquire into whole house management systems.
 
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