AGM Batteries and Heat

[Jetronic]

The charger never goes above 3A, no matter what I choose for maximum load voltage. The voltage will be reduced (first stage) to keep the 3A load current. Once the 14.3/14.8V is reached, the voltage will be kept there and the load current drops. I don't know how low however until the voltage drops to 13.8V. They are however not quite full there, maybe 95%..

The batteries are kept in my basement, so never cold nor hot. Definitely under 80F and 3A don't heat them much.

I'll hook up an amp meter and try to determine how low the charge current drops next time. I put them on a maintenance charge every few months. These are Varta batteries

 

[bbhero]

Yeah wrcsixeight is the best when it comes to battery information. Top 99.9999% when it comes to knowledge base on batteries and how to care for them.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
There are JC batteries made in Spain, Saudi Arabia, and Mexico as well.... If the Pep Boys battery is made by JC and made here in the US then it should be pretty good. The Duracell is quite likely a East Penn manufacturing battery too. Batteries Plus Duracell Gold battery has a 3 yr warranty. So there is zero difference there. At least that what they have in my area. Which is a very good battery there.

As far as the AGM... Seriously think about the X-2 aka Northstar at Batteries Plus Bulbs. It is right up there with Lifeline and Odyssey in terms of build quality.


The Bosch Johnson Controls size 96R for my wife's car at Pep Boys has 3 year free replacement and 96 month prorated warranty. If I can wait until I can stack a Pep Boys online discount with a Bosch rebate my cost is $76.74

https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/9929951/00741/2011/FORD/MUSTANG/0/V6-3731%25203.7L%2520DOHC

Duracell size 96R at Sam's Club where I live has 3 year replacement warranty for $92.88

https://www.samsclub.com/ip/duracell-automotive-battery-group-size-96r/prod3590236?merchTax=auto-tires%3Abatteries%3Aautomotive-batteries

Batteries Plus Bulbs where I live has 2 year warranty for $106.99 minus 10% online discount code = $96.29 for the same 96R size Duracell (Ultra) - and show this is the only battery they offer for my wife's Mustang.

https://www.batteriesplus.com/battery/car-and-truck/ford/mustang/2011/v6-3.7l-590cca/sli96r

Bosch AGM for my truck at Pep Boys, if purchased when I can stack a Bosch rebate coupon ($30) with a Pep Boys online discount code (25%) would be $134.99 with a 4 year replacement warranty.

https://www.pepboys.com/parts/batteries_accessories/automotive_batteries/00741/2012/DODGE-RAM%2520TRUCK/RAM%25201500%2520PICKUP/0/V8-345%2520%25205.7L

Duracell AGM for my truck at Sam's Club has 3 year replacement warranty for $169.52

https://www.samsclub.com/ip/auto-grp-94r-h7-agm-36-mo-free/prod9510086?merchTax=auto-tires%3Abatteries%3Aautomotive-batteries

Duracell AGM for my truck at Batteries Plus Bulbs has a 3 year replacement warranty for $202.49 after 10% online discount.

https://www.batteriesplus.com/battery/car-and-truck/ram/1500/2012/v8-5.7l-730cca/sli94ragm

The X2 AGM for my truck at Batteries Plus Bulbs has a 5 year replacement warranty for $233.99 with 10% online discount code.

https://www.batteriesplus.com/battery/car-and-truck/ram/1500/2012/v8-5.7l-730cca/sli94ragmdp

So it would be a delta of $100 to go from the Pep Boys Johnson Controls AGM with 4 year warranty to the X2 AGM at Batteries Plus Bulbs with 5 year warranty for my truck and I personally don't see the added value for the money for just 1 incremental year on the free replacement warranty. YMMV

 

[bbhero]

That agm battery at Costco is not a real deal deep cycle battery. It is likely made by East Penn Deka and is their Intimadator AGM battery. It is a good battery for sure. But compared to the X-2 battery made by Northstar it is no where near as good. The X-2 Northstar battery could do almost 3 times as many true deep cycles as compared to the AGM from Costco. It is a FAR better battery than that one. Yes it may well be a fair amount more money. I know that and knew that already. But... If maintained properly It would very likely out last the AGM from Costco by a wide margin. Enough so as it would pay for itself over time.

Good thing is that you pay attention to it all. So no matter what you will be in good shape and take care of business. And that is what keeps you from being in a bad spot when it comes to your truck and cars.

 

[Nyogtha]

FWIW, take a look at my post - there are no batteries at Costco posted by me - it would be pointless since I don't have a Costco membership.

Post up data on how many more years the X2 will outlast the Pep Boys Johnson Controls AGM battery and Duracell AGM battery then I can do an economic analyses. I'm interested in best value for the money ($/year of service as my metric of value).

In a daily driver, how many deep cycles are required?

 

[bbhero]

It will still last a lot longer... End of story. Good, bad or indifferent the Northstar battery is a far better battery then one from Pep Boys, Sam's club, Costco, Wally World, AAP, Autozone. JC batteries are good to very good. But compared to Northstar, Odyssey, Trojan, and Lifeline they are rather far behind. And yes I have had a JC battery made in Saudi Arabia have acid fly out if it and nearly hit me in my only good eye I have left. Granted it was a Valuepower battery at Walmart. The JC batteries are pretty good at the end of the day. And like I said you are taking care of business and you will be in good shape no matter what because you are paying good attention to everything.

 

[Nyogtha]

Without such data on actual service life, we can do economic analyses on warranty replacement period, as this indicates performance past the warranty period is so variable the battery manufacturer excludes this from the warranty.

Pep Boys Bosch AGM is then $33.50 / year of warrantied service when stacked with a rebate, $41 / year without rebate.

Sam's Club Duracell AGM is $56.51 / year of warrantied service.

Batteries Plus Bulbs Duracell AGM is $67.50 / year of warrantied service.

Batteries Plus Bulbs X2 AGM is $46.80 / year of warrantied service.

I doubt the factory AGM currently in my truck is equivalent to the X2 but it's provided 5 years of service with no quantitative degredation so far - and I expect the Bosch & Duracell AGM's are similar to what I have now.

FWIW you're the one who posted the incremental cost of the X2 would pay for itself over time. When I requested data to show that, you simply say longer & end of story - guess that's enough for you but not for me.

Some folks perceive lowest cost means best value.

Some folks percieve highest cost means best value.

My metrics are different but as I said YMMV.

 

[bbhero]

Yeah I understand the math of what you are saying here. And I don't disagree with the obvious fact it is steep with the Northstar X-2 while looking at the warranty time frame. But the very high likelihood that it would last well past the warranty period is where it would make up for the higher initial cost. I am just sorry but I wouldn't have no where near the same confidence in a JC, East Penn Deka AGM or a terrible Exide past the warranty period. That is where the batteries like Northstar, Odyssey, Lifeline and Trojan have a strong advantage past the free replacement warranty period.

 

[bbhero]

I don't have millions of dollars for a lab, or for hiring a large group of consultants, and or tracking system either. If you want all of that then go ahead and fund that somehow. If you want to know what batteries work in far tougher working conditions then look at fork lifts and golf carts. What batteries do they use???? There's your answer in short form. And yes in many instances they are using a dual purpose battery. Especially group 24 and 27.
No matter what though you will be in good shape. You take very good care of things so it will be fine.

 

[Nyogtha]

I don't have that at my disposal either but I also demonstrated I don't need that to quantitatively back up my prior statements.

My factory AGM has performed flawlessly from -19°F as I previously posted as well as San Antonio summer where I currently live, so I have a difficult time envisioning moving to an environment with tougher climactic condition extremes than my factory battery has seen in its 5 years of service. I never asked the question you just answered in short form. I don't own a fork lift nor golf cart nor do I expect to purchase one.

My current factory truck AGM has restored my faith in AGM - I went through several spiral wound Champion AGM's in my last truck. When it went into the prorated period instead of free replacement on the second battery is when I decided this no longer had appropriate value and replaced it with a flooded Interstate that was still working fine, in the polar vortex negative degrees F weather, when I sold it 6 years later. FWIW the info at the link in my second post does show Champion brand batteries are indeed manufactured by Exide.

I'm sure your equipment lasts a long time as well.

 

[bbhero]

Hey Nygotha you are TOTALLY right about the math part of this. It is just too good of a deal at Pep Boys or Sam's club. And it will be a very good fiscal decision to run with either if those. The Northstar would have to be good for a very, very long time aka 9 yes or so to equal out. I believe it could do that. But.... I would say what you are doing makes a whole lot of sense. It would be just as well to run the AGM from Pep Boys or Sam's club for 5 yes maybe ... 6 and replace. The math is just too good not to.
I will say that the Northstar X-2, Lifeline, Odyssey, or Trojan would be of extremely high quality. And for that I would think of paying extra for it just for that reason. And if I had bought a X-2 in 2013 I would have been able to just about equal the math out for my car. But I didn't

Tell you what though, If you were to throw me the keys to the truck 4 plus yrs from now I know it would be ready to roll and kick hind quarters.

 

[Colt45ws]

I just got ahold of a Odyssey Extreme for my car by basically pure luck. I pulled my Walmart JCI Maxx battery and dropped it in. But to make sure it was happy, I installed a diode in the alternators voltage sense line. This boosts the voltage by 0.6-0.4V depending on temperature. When I started the car on a 42F morning the alternator output was 15.1V and dropped to 14.6V after a 10 minute drive. This should be pretty close to optimal according to its voltage vs temperature graph. Im hoping to get quite a lot of use out of it. I especially like the capability to deep cycle it without damage like if I wanted to listen to music with the engine off. It should save me gas in these instances since I dont let standard batteries drop much below 12V under load before starting the engine to recharge the battery. But I should be okay discharging my Odyssey to just above 10V.

 

[wrcsixeight]

10.5v is considered 100% discharged on a 12v battery.

Avoid taking any 12v lead acid battery this low intentionally. The exeption would be odyssey's reconditioning procedure, for when capacity has noticeably declined. They say to take battery to 10v, but under the load of headlights, which is about 15 amps. When this ~15 amp load is removed the voltage will likely rebound to 10.5v or above within 15 minutes.

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ODYSSEY_Battery_Reconditioning_Charge_Procedure.pdf

Lifeline AGM are a deep cycle AGM, Top dog deep cycle AGm in my opinion, that have more than enough CCA and PCA to start an engine. But not as much as Odyssey/Northstar

They have a conditioning procedure which is different than Odyssey. it is much closer to the equalization procedure of flooded batteries. After a regular full charge, holding 14.2 to 14.4v until amps taper to 0.5% of capacity, then bump voltage upto 15.5v, for 8 hours. monitor battery temperature

http://lifelinebatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/manual.pdf

page 20

Lifeline/Concorde is the only AGM manufacturer to recommend charge voltages this high as far as I know.

Another great read on Lead acid batteries is from Rolls Surrette:

http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf

Really, maintenance and budget minded bitogers wanting their vehicle's starting batteries to last, would ensure the battery is regularly getting 100% charged, and not relying on their vehicle to accomplish this.

As far as Equalization charges, well Trojan and Rolls surrette now recommend taking the fully chrged sulfated battery to 16.2v at no more than 5 amps per 100Ah of capacity, and holding 16.2v until specific gravity no longer rises, or the battery starts getting realy hot, like 110f.

EQ charges are hard on a deep cycle battery, with its thicker less porous plates, but it will restore capacity to the maximum remaining potential capacity. On a starter battery with thinner more porous plates, well it might push a weak sulfated battery off the cliff and short a cell.

Good luck finding a plug in garage charger to get to 16.2v without exceeding 16.2, or exceeding 5 amp per 100AH capacity on the way upto 16.2v

Trojan fairly recently bumped their recommended EQ voltage from 15.5 to 16.2v.