Advice towards Overkill

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Ok, I think most of us here really care about our cars and their performance. I know that its really easy for me to get swept up in the promise of expanded benefits and additives. Im hoping to purchase a new vehicle that should start out with a clean engine and I want to treat it right. However, Im worried about overkill. Ive become a fan of ARX despite a healthy dose of initial skepticism. Frank has told me in a phone conversation that Terry is saying a 2 ounce maintenence dose of ARX will help maintain a clean engine for a long time. You have to give credit to the guy. He could have stayed with his 3 oz recommendation to enhance sales but hes upfront about using less. Terry Dyson also recommends Lube Control and Fuel Power. I spoke with an engineer this morning about Phillips gasoline. As an aside the man got his degree in mechanical engineering and worked as a chemical engineer at his refinery. He has multiple patents to his name and I spoke with him about solvents and detergents in gasoline. Water is a solvent but too much water in the gasoline to keep the engine clean would probably be a bad idea. At least thats what Mr Goodwrench guy told me when I tried to drive through a lake. Ok, lets get back to the topic of a brand new vehicle off the lot or even an older car. At what point in time do we need more than 25 types of spice to enhance those steaks for when company comes a calling. Pretending that one starts with using the best motor oil with a fantastic additive package and then puts in more additives in Lube Control and ARX then they have a heavily additized oil. Then you start running top tier gasolines with high amounts of detergents and start adding fuel power and perhaps sea foam and the picture gets further muddied. Seriously, all of us want the best performance for our cars but at some point in time we must be achieving overkill. Isnt it possible for us to use too much additives? At what point in time do we go too far? Is Lube Control better than ARX in maintaining a clean engine or are both of them fine to use together. Would they work better in a cheap dino oil rather than an oil already heavily additized? Are expensive oils like Amsoil, RP racing, and Redline already using the products and capabilities that the oil additives companies purport? Frank is a great guy and I have to say his product helped my older car far more than Idve ever guessed. Ive recommended his product to more than a few people. Im gaining respect for Odis Beaver on a daily basis. But Im really worried about overdoing it. Good oil starts out heavily additized and it seems that really smart experts in the field like Terry Dyson and Molakule would suggest that more additives can still help you. Im seriously considering looking into Royal Purple racing oils because they have a reputation of not having the large amounts of cleaning additives that perhaps some of the higher grade "street" oils have and I dont want to go too far. In another thread there have been great UOA's posted based on RP racing oils but which used some additives like Lube Control. I trust Al's advice a lot and he seems to be blending his oils these days so he wont go too far on additives. At what point is the baby flying across the lawn with a very clean bath? Especially when you start out with a clean engine thats just been purchased new or has been cleaned with Auto-Rx, and is being run with top tier gasoline which has heavy amounts of detergents and fuel power which is supposed to clean things further. Im trying to learn all that I can but too much of a good thing can spoil the soup or confuddle me adn cuase me all keinds of fusioncon. Happy Motoring All, [Cool] Bugshu
 
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I've had great success keeping my engine internals clean with just Mobil 1, as have many others. That's it. If you look under my valve cover, you'll see nothing but clean, shiny metal after 85k miles. No varnish, no sludge. That's my formula, no overkill necessary. I've switched to GC for the time being, but people like Audi Junkie have had good success with that keeping things clean as well.
 

Bugshu

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Hi Matt, Congratulations and Well done. Mobil 1 is a great oil and obviously its heavily additized with good cleaning agents. There is a lot unsaid in your post. Do you use high quality top tier gasoline to help you out? Do you live in a dusty area? Do you tow? I remember reading on the boards some bashing of a used oil analysis and the oil and then Terry chimed in and basically said, "look guys this guy is working in a dusty construction site and towing things around." Perhaps part of the need for higher performance oils is predicated on their intended usefulness. Now my 5 ft 2 Aunt Josephine can drive her Suburban to church on Sunday at 20 mph while waving to the world of drivers staring at her brand new daffodil hat and never really test the limits of her oil and engine which gets 2000 miles a year on it before being changed while her son might be towing his horse trailer with his Geo Metro across some dirt roads with serious potholes and be more demanding of the oil protecting his investment that incidently has had 20,000 miles on it since having last been changed. Of course we all know the best oil is some corn for those horses in case the car overheats a bit much and needs to be muled a bit by those unfortunate beasts in the trailer. I think Mobil 1 is a great oil with good cleaning properties and obviously Im overexaggerating. Still, I respect the opinions of guys like Terry Dyson and Molakule are worth noting and they seem to be recommending a range of additives. Indeed Odis and Frank wouldnt be sponsers of this site if the opinion here hurt their sales rather than helped it. I dont think their products are in the category of leeeeezard juice but I dont think they are elfin elixers that can restore my chevette into its previous existence as a 57 Chevy in new condition. Frank says over and over his product will clean an engine but not restore metal. Of course Ive done experiments trying to prove that Auto RX will reforge deformed metal into alchemic new condition and my Merlin like powers havent rewarded me as well as hoped. I think a great guy that runs Mobil 1 and drives sensibly could keep a wonderfully clean engine. But predisposing that Im loopy and might want extended oil changes in high stress engines that tow and do other useful things perhaps Molakule's advice and Dysons opinion might be worth a bit of osmosis at least until its fram'd out or Baldwin'd or Wix'd through definative analysis. Happy Motoring All, [Cool] Bugshu
 
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A lot depends on what you want to get out of your vehicle. I'd like to keep mine as close to forever as I can, so I have no problems doing a little overkill. I figure it will payoff in the long, long term. Besides, there is a certain satisfaction in knowing that you've done the best you can for your vehicle.
 
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I think it is kind of hard on your wallet if you overkill but not much else. I use the Mobil 1 and will do auto-rx treatments about ever 50,000 miles. I also use shell v-power which has improved my milage by 3mpg. I think I have struck a happy medium. [I dont know] [Happy]
 
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This is a great topic todays oil is supposed to clean and lubricate, that said how many additives can you put into an oil before cutting back the oil's lubrication properties ? Lubrizoil Corp tried various ratio's of Auto-Rx in additive packages it manufactures for it's oil clients, however you can't cut back on 2 ounces per quart of engine oil when cleaning with Auto-Rx, it just does not work.We have seniors in Daytona Beach who drive old land cruisers they are on fixed incomes. We clean there engines and put them on the Auto-Rx maintenance plan and they use WalMarts oil and filters and run 7500 miles beteen oil changes in those Chrysler Imperials-Lincolns-Caddy. No oil cleans as deep as safe as Auto-Rx "A Clean Engine Is A Healthy Engine"
 
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If you start with a new, or clean, engine, M1 or similar sauce would be all you need. Many people have dirty engines [internally], and benefit greatly from good cleaners. Injector cleaners can be of great value, as well as cleaning off the C.C. deposits.
 

Bugshu

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Hrmmm......... I guess to simplify things there are some very smart people on these boards that recommend additives like lube control and fuel power and Auto-rx. Molakule wrote a nice writeup for the fuel power / lube control website and I believe that Terry Dyson is helping Frank out with dosage recommendations. Anyway, Im not really trying to debate whether or not the products work as others have debated the points on other threads. My opinion is that Id rather keep my engine clean rather than clean it after it started to develop sludge. Frank and others recommend maintenence dosages and Terry Dyson has recommended Lube Control and Fuel Power on several occasions. I think that Id rather do a few maintenence dosages than a complete ARX cleaning 100,000 miles from now ..... but thats me. The real question is where do we draw the line? At what point in time do we have enough additives? I could fill the car up with 45% auto-rx and 45% lube control and 1 bottle of redline for the additives you know and Im not sure that my "oil" would be doing a good job. I appreciate the Mobil 1 and fuggedaboutit comments but thats sort of shifting the topic of debate back to do the additives work. This topic is quantifying the concept that they will benefit you but the point of enhancement towards overuse is unclear. Really smart people say these additives help and Im wondering at what point in time have we gone overboard with additives rather than quality oil. Molakule in his paper on the Lube control website flat out states that one shouldnt overfill their oil with additives. He puts it succinctly. DO NOT OVERFILL. Some questions. 1. Is Lube Control and AutoRx best used together or do their benefits overlap and suggest the other is unnecessary? 2. Is it better to use a half dose of each when using the other product? 3. Will they outperform a high quality cleaning oil like Mobil 1 that already has a strong add pac? Or do they work in concert together? 4. With a high quality oil that wont breakdown and sludge like a top synthetic do they even help you? Franks pretty honest about his product working better in dino juice. But I dont think hes willing to admit that it wont help synthetic oils as well. 5. Will they work better in extended drains? Or are they wasted with short drain intervals? 6. Does fuel power mimic the detergents in top tier gasoline or is it different and better. 7. Do all these products work better together or better as stand alone entitites? With top tier gas, quality adds in the oil, fp, arx, and lc together you have a lot of additives working to keep your engine clean. Throw in clean burning ethanol and winter gas mix and its quite the crowded scene competing to clean an engine. Im sure there are more questions to be asked but this should get the ball rolling with some opinions. Honestly, I think these are products that can help a vehicle and at the very least not hurt it but too much of a good thing can be counterproductive. I will get actually specific. Lets pretend that a person is using a high quality synthetic like Redline, Royal Purple Racing or Mobil 1 and then uses half doses of Auto Rx which is 1 oz for a maintence dose and a half dose of Lube control which is perhaps 3 ounces and then uses tt gas with its detergents and a half dose of fuel power which is an ounce of fuel power per 10 gallons of gas. The questions are do these products compliment each other so that ARX + Lube Control do as well or more as each other in stand alone dosages? Does the top tier gasoline and fuel power compliment each other? Or are the dosages too small to do much good? Should perhaps one pick LC over ARX or vice versa and maintain the full recommended dosage? Would it hurt or be counterproductive to run both at full dosage and use a bit less oil? Does it even matter with a higher quality oil? Is FP wasted when a top tier gasoline like Phillips/Conoco/Chevron is cleaning the engine with a good amount of detergents? Does anyone even know the answer to my whimsical queries? Whew...... Id really like to hear everyones opinions about these questions. We keep hearing about all the great products that help but overkill can be an issue. Thanks for Helping and Responding. Happy Motoring All, [Cool] Bugshu
 
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quote:
Really smart people say these additives help and Im wondering at what point in time have we gone overboard with additives rather than quality oil.
We're reaching a new ..or neo evolution in the industry. You would think that by now ...with the level of technology of a very old concept (the internal combustion engine) that there would be all there is to know by now. What we are finding is that instead of continued improvements ..we have exchanges of problems. Why do some brand new contemporary engine designs, made by premier companies, sludge with contemporary oil ..undoubtedly the most advanced they have ever been $ for $?? Why do engines knock on spec'd pump fuel? Why should I have to get my PCM reflashed a few years from now? You assertion ...question really ..is based on the assumption that everything works as it was intended. We are finding that it typically does for the most part ..but only to a point. From a philsophical standpoint (which is how I truly read your intent here) ..we're at the point of realization ...and not the uphoria. For example when our nation was in the middle of the baby boom after WWII. Life was good. We built modern schools ..a federal highway net ...many fleets of gleaming strategic bombers (many evolutions) libraries ...life was good. Did we imagine the entire population turning old in such mass numbers? Did we ever think that maintaining the federal highway net would be 100 times more expensive then building it to begin with? That the just about the largest and most advanced military on the planet would be strapped for cash?? That is, how would you be viewed if you preparing for these eventualities BEFORE they were reaized problems or evolutions? A "overkill" overkillist?? Someone wasting good available resources? A doomsdayer? Same thing here (apply the template as needed). Nothing ever turns out the way you expect it to ..period. [ November 10, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
 
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I agree with you that at some point your margin for return is nill. I think I like the idea of keeping it simple. 1) Use a good HDDO dino or synthetic with LC regularly! 2) USe a a decent OCI interval like every 6 months or 7500 mile with either of the above combinations. 3)Consider an Rx treatment every 50,000-75,000 miles if you plan to own the vechile for a long time! Most Toyota's wich makes up the bulk of my familys vechiles will last 300,000+ miles on cheap dino and 3000 mile OCI. It does not make sense to me to start doing a home brew coctail of LC,ARX,Synthetic,Oil Extreme etc..... If I do anything like that rest assured it is just more curiosity then anything else. I think some of use foregett that much of this site is about simple experamenting. I do not think that most of the brews,cocktails or expermints are done because we feel we need these things. I think that a lot of use like the whole cause and effect thing. I also think that some of use like to go hunting for trophy UOA. Some of use like to see what is more important the oil or the additives......These are fun and entertaining! Sometimes we all take ourselfs and our hobbys a bit to seriously!! Remeber this is all supposed to be fun!!
 
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Some of use like to see what is more important the oil or the additives......These are fun and entertaining! Sometimes we all take ourselfs and our hobbys a bit to seriously!! Remeber this is all supposed to be fun!!
Shhh...be verwy verwy quiet ...we're on a verwy important quwest. [Big Grin]
 

Bugshu

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Hi Gary and John, For some of us on these boards its business and there is money to be made selling products. Others of us cant afford new cars and need to enhance the lifespan of the old one. For a few lucky few of us we are getting new cars and want our investments to last. We each have our reasons to be here. I can say that I would prefer my next new car to go 500,000 miles over having trophy UOA's and Id sort of like opinions on how to get it there. This is a circumstance thats knocking on the door and hopefully the minds here can assist me in helping me achieve the goal. Thank You for your opinions and Im looking forward to hearing more of them. We have one person down for using dino and letting lube control be the additive of choice with ARX used occasionally to help do periodic engine flush type cleans. We have a couple other M1 and forgettaboutit opinions. Happy Motoring All, [Cool] Bugshu
 
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Bugshu, this is a very important question and well worth asking ! I have a simple answer that is critical to finding out the answer. Unbiased Oil analysis. Properly interpreted. The motor oil in an engine is akin to the blood of a human and traces of what was aspirated,eaten,contaminated,stored, damaged, then eliminated is evident and there for the intepretation. I would not use ANY add product without having a baseline of data to compare to.( Exception, fuel adds that I know don't react to bearings,such as FP and Techron when used as directed.) Fuel is currently so poorly treated and easily contaminated. Speaking of Frank Miller and Odis Beaver and their respective products that we have tested; (Important Note and Disclaimer, I have not tested all the derivatives of LC and FP that Odis holds), are special because they are the only companies I have EVER allowed to use my name and reputation in relation to any product. I only allow that due to positive testing results and that I think they have been overlooked by the broader industry because of their size and disruptive technology to the oil company status quo. That said they do not own me and blanket statements that I suggest this or that needs to be well grounded in the fact that if you don't use analysis you are guessing. I want Frank and Odis to succeed but my primary goal is to give my customers the unbiased truth even if it costs them Auto-RX, LC/FP sales. I make money interpreting test data, not selling any product. Each vehicle design,operating condition,oil chemistry , driving style vary. The ONLY common measurement that is affordable to the enthusiast ( most car owners could care less), is the basic oil analysis to verify the theories and claims. Gary is right, the whole lube formulation field is changing. The bases are the adds and the adds are the bases. The bases are changing. The old ideas about how the lube chemistry is formulated is different and unless you are on the cutting edge you will draw incorrect conclusions to why "IT" works or fails in the field. Most machines can gain significant improvements having a "tuned" lube regimen, that level or amount of that improvement can only be measured by analysis and operating efficiencies increasing through better driveability and measureable MPG gains. There is a lubricant, start up, company in the midwest that very soon should begin producing that cutting edge kind of lubricant that is absolutely using the latest formulations. I can't wait to be able to introduce their products here.The combination of quality,cutting edge chemistry and reasonable cost should make these products a BITOG standard. Terry [ November 11, 2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
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Bugshu, Thanks for the compliment. I left a lot unsaid on purpose. My point was that I believe a quality synthetic is all you really need to protect the engine internals. I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with detergent levels, either. A good synthetic will be more resistant to oxidation and varnishing than regular oil, making for less junk for the detergents to carry away. BTW, my car is a 2000 Monte Carlo. I live in a suburban area, so there's no dust, just typical urban pollution and I certainly don't tow. Top Tier gas is not available anywhere near Detroit. At least not yet. Shell is supposed to be there soon, but the fact of the matter is I use whatever's cheapest. I've recently started with Fuel Power, but only within the last 1k miles. Before that it got a large bottle of Techron in the gasoline every oil change. I'm very hesistant to add anything to my engine oil. I believe A-RX and LC are excellent products, but I don't believe I need them at this time.
 

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Bugshu, Interesting question. 1. I don't think it's overkill. See 2. 2. John Browning gave a very logical approach to a possible regimen that makes a lot of sense; follow it, be consistent, do UOA's, and tweak. 3. My feeling is that by educating the consumer, he/she can start to make informed decisions about basic lubrication, OTC additives, etc. This has been my quest for BITOG the past 2.5 years. A consumer's education won't happen overnight, but a lot of Osmosis can occur by reading the host of technical literature and discussions here on BITOG. And the feedback and comments from practicing mechanics and technicians is invaluable.
 
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[QUOTE}I have a simple answer that is critical to finding out the answer. Unbiased Oil analysis. Properly interpreted. [/QUOTE] Here is a loaded question (for Terry): How much information can you REALLY get from a basic $35 oil analysis? I have used Terry's services, and I have found his comments very helpful, and I appreciate his honest feedback. However, a little voice in the back of my head keeps telling me that and oil analysis can only show you so much, and that other problems can be occuring that may not necessarily show up in a UOA. Can anyone comment? This DOES fit right in with the "overkill" topic, because it brings me to my next question: How often should one do a UOA as a routine "check-up" procedure? How much is overkill?
 
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nova, fair question. A reasonably accurate analysis test for $35 can tell you how the car ran, what you did to it, if there are underlying mechanical issues(before they cause major damage),how the particular lube is holding up in that specific application,and tune level. Interval: Most daily drivers should be tested annually to monitor condition of the engine and the lubricant once a regimen is decided on. What does it all mean ? I use all the above to interpret for your specific car and pull in all the historical data on that engine and that lube I can.Allowing us to fine tune your engine. Some is my own data ,some from proprietary testing I have worked with or have knowledge of. Never disclosing proprietary data I am under secrecy agreements on. Example of a "inhouse" $35 test; Recent oil analysis I interpeted was a high performance 366RWHP 1.8L audi/VW turboed car that failed minutes after the oil was drawn for testing. Yes he was using M1 !! [Duh!] Not the oils fault though.. While the test results arrived after the failure,the performance engine builder purposely withheld the fact that the engine cratered quickly. I intepreted the data for what it showed and alerted the builder that catastrophic problems were just around the corner and suggested further investigation immediately, specifically concerned for the parts that failed. Too bad the analysis wasn't drawn a few days before the block was penetrated by a connecting rod. TD [ November 11, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Terry: Interval: Most daily drivers should be tested annually to monitor condition of the engine and the lubricant once a regimen is decided on.
Terry, I appreciate seeing that suggested interval posted by someone in the UOA business. [Patriot] A less ethical person would be trying to sell a full analyisis every oil change.
 
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Thanks, Terry! I suspect you could likely tell more about an engines condition doing a trended analysis, using the SAME type and brand of oil, vs. seeing different oil each time. Am I correct? I know I have been guilty of "muddying the waters" by switching back and forth between brands on the stuff I have sent you. Glad to hear the "once a year" suggestion, as that is what I've been following. However, I have a batch of GF4 in one vehicle now, and I am real tempted to compare it to my last analysis using GF3 (same brand and oil type) to see if my OCI is still valid. (I just had the GF3 UOA performed a few months ago). We'll see how much spare cash I have when this stuff is ready to drain! [Smile]
 
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XS650, Thanks for noticing. I'm in the oil analysis business long term, not a quickie profit type deal. I want customers for life not a couple of tests. If I ain't saving you money or equipement then what good is the testing cost ? BTW, the race engine mentioned above had not been analyzed before the one test we did.Trended I have no doubt we could have headed off problems way before the costly mechanical failure. I will be the first to admit there are things I miss and I am not perfect every "read". I try really hard to get it right every time though. TD
 
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