Advanced chipmakers will get new subsidies to design and mfg in the states?

[DirectRejection]

It's an international business. The big photolithography companies are Dutch (ASML) and Japanese (Nikon and Canon). However, a lot of the other equipment is American - Applied Materials and Lam Research. I think the big testing equipment companies include American companies. Not sure if Credence is still in business. I know Schlumberger is no longer in the automated test equipment business. I know they were a French company, but I took classes on semiconductor testing where the part-time instructor owned his own semiconductor testing support business and previously worked for Schlumberger at their Silicon Valley office.

I remember at many of my companies the wafers might be made one place but the cutting and packaging at another place. Packaging is mostly in Asia these days - Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, etc.

Our prototype boards might be made locally, but they were very expensive. We had a guy in Richmond, California who would make boards and could do the expensive rework on those prototype boards. We must have paid him enough since he would hand-deliver stuff to us and liked coming over to talk shop. It was really weird too since he always came by wearing his ESD smock, even though nobody in our lab ever wore one. This is very different than production boards though, where I think that's overwhelmingly done in Asia now.

Agreed.
My contacts at Intel talk all day about EUV.

 

[supton]

It's an international business. The big photolithography companies are Dutch (ASML) and Japanese (Nikon and Canon). However, a lot of the other equipment is American - Applied Materials and Lam Research. I think the big testing equipment companies include American companies. Not sure if Credence is still in business. I know Schlumberger is no longer in the automated test equipment business. I know they were a French company, but I took classes on semiconductor testing where the part-time instructor owned his own semiconductor testing support business and previously worked for Schlumberger at their Silicon Valley office.

I remember at many of my companies the wafers might be made one place but the cutting and packaging at another place. Packaging is mostly in Asia these days - Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, etc.

Our prototype boards might be made locally, but they were very expensive. We had a guy in Richmond, California who would make boards and could do the expensive rework on those prototype boards. We must have paid him enough since he would hand-deliver stuff to us and liked coming over to talk shop. It was really weird too since he always came by wearing his ESD smock, even though nobody in our lab ever wore one. This is very different than production boards though, where I think that's overwhelmingly done in Asia now.

Still have Teradyne and NI stateside for testers. Handlers, not sure, same with probers. But it's global for sure, if you don't have field reps in the various areas, it's hard to make sales (or get service).

Circuit boards, there are stateside fabs and assembly places. not sure how pricing runs, but there is something to be said for ordering locally to point of usage (stateside or not). Depending on how many boards you need, cost sometimes isn't much of a consideration. Working is, as is getting in a timely fashion (no small matter these days).

Finally, EDA tools. You've got Cadence which is US and I think about all there is for IC design? but they have competition in the PCB design market, which is global. Zuken, Altium, probably something else (don't think KiCAD has much of a presence in ATE but it's certainly the upcomer).

 

[y_p_w]

Still have Teradyne and NI stateside for testers. Handlers, not sure, same with probers. But it's global for sure, if you don't have field reps in the various areas, it's hard to make sales (or get service).

Circuit boards, there are stateside fabs and assembly places. not sure how pricing runs, but there is something to be said for ordering locally to point of usage (stateside or not). Depending on how many boards you need, cost sometimes isn't much of a consideration. Working is, as is getting in a timely fashion (no small matter these days).

Finally, EDA tools. You've got Cadence which is US and I think about all there is for IC design? but they have competition in the PCB design market, which is global. Zuken, Altium, probably something else (don't think KiCAD has much of a presence in ATE but it's certainly the upcomer).

I'm quite familiar with EDA tools. There's still lots of competition (and consolidation), although a lot of times there are preferences by individual workers. It's actually a Big Three for EDA tools.

The big players in EDA tools are Cadence, Synopsys, and Siemens (Mentor Graphics) which are all primarily operating out of Silicon Valley. Cadence is in San Jose, Synopsys is in Mountain View, and Siemens is in Fremont. Mentor Graphics used to be based in Oregon, but their EDA stuff mostly came out of Fremont. I don't really have a huge preference although I've never used a Mentor Graphics/Siemens tool professionally. Previous versions were available when I was in grad school.

There are small players in EDA - especially a lot of the ancillary stuff that doesn't cost a fortune in per seat license. One is Aldec, which has a PC-based set of simulation/verification tools but not synthesis.

There's even some open source stuff but it's not that great, but can be OK for first pass stuff since it doesn't require a license. I've used Icarus Verilog before although my boss was like "We're getting all this stuff from Synopsys, so why aren't you using VCS?" I could run Icarus Verilog locally and didn't have to deal with issues connecting to our server. But for synthesis we did end up using Design Compiler, which the leader. At previous companies we used Cadence tools for simulation but Synopsys tools for synthesis.

 

[JeffKeryk]

@y_p_w KLA is the leader in Metrology and Defect Inspection. Used to be 2 companies, KLA and Tencor. They merged and became KLA-Tencor and are now just KLA. Like the other biggies, AMAT and LRCX, they have grown through acquisition and offer much more, but Metrology was their core.

 

[Donald]

I have stock in Lam and they make chip making equipment.

 

[Dinoburner]

The problem is education. We don't value it.

So many correctable problems, wish I could say more.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I have stock in Lam and they make chip making equipment.

Dep and Etch primarily.

 

[pbm]

We are being bankrupted by the spending of our politicians.

And so much of that spending doesn't help Americans....

 

[Dave Hess]

We are being bankrupted by the spending of our politicians.

Yep.

They are spending their way to prosperity….

 

[proveitwithdata]

And so much of that spending doesn't help Americans....

how do you suggest we onshore advanced chip production?

 

[pbm]

how do you suggest we onshore advanced chip production?

I wasn't referring to domestic chip production but rather foreign aid, NATO etc....also those who take taxpayer funding and fail like Solyndra.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Job hopping is the norm today, it’s expected to move around more. In some ways it may be the only way to climb the ladder. I’m not sure if companies are doing enough to move people around, move up the ladder, or across the company—one could say, that’s up to the employee to do, but at some point, when employers can’t get work done because of turnover, at what point does it become their problem to solve?

This is what frustrates the heck out of me. I really like the industry I work in, and there are only 3 major players in it. The other two are much worse. Just like chip making, the only way to truly get valuable experience is to stick it out through good times and bad.

I’ve been with the company 16 years, have experience in production, inspection & packaging, along with a BS and MS from Purdue. Yet when I apply to move up the ladder and they hire a job hopper with less experience and education, they offer 10-15% more to the external applicant. Why? I’ve been faithful and loyal, and if the qualifications are worth $XXX to the company, they should reward the faithful person more than the outsider.

I know the job, the culture, and important connections better than anybody who’s breezing through on a 2-year plan… this kills morale and careers. I’m not poorly paid by any means, but why would you pay a premium to hire somebody you KNOW is going to be looking for their next exit almost immediately?

Many of these tech jobs will either be filled with visas, which doesn’t help our knowledge base either. Sad.

 

[supton]

This is what frustrates the heck out of me. I really like the industry I work in, and there are only 3 major players in it. The other two are much worse. Just like chip making, the only way to truly get valuable experience is to stick it out through good times and bad.

I’ve been with the company 16 years, have experience in production, inspection & packaging, along with a BS and MS from Purdue. Yet when I apply to move up the ladder and they hire a job hopper with less experience and education, they offer 10-15% more to the external applicant. Why? I’ve been faithful and loyal, and if the qualifications are worth $XXX to the company, they should reward the faithful person more than the outsider.

I know the job, the culture, and important connections better than anybody who’s breezing through on a 2-year plan… this kills morale and careers. I’m not poorly paid by any means, but why would you pay a premium to hire somebody you KNOW is going to be looking for their next exit almost immediately?

Many of these tech jobs will either be filled with visas, which doesn’t help our knowledge base either. Sad.

Yep.

I was actually starting to rise up, then the playing field changed on me, and I realized I'd rather not be in management. Not sure how much I want to go into it, but I don't see efforts in "just outsource it already" working really well. Some things you can, and are better off. Other things... should have been approached more cautiously.

 

[zzyzzx]

Part of hedging against a Taiwan invasion.

I get that, but is there a domestic demand for the actual chips since the completed circuit boards aren't made here?

 

[y_p_w]

I get that, but is there a domestic demand for the actual chips since the completed circuit boards aren't made here?

There are production circuit boards being made in the United States. China is the world leader, but the technology to make printed circuit boards is nowhere near as exclusive as making the most advanced semiconductor processes.

Shifting production of printed circuit boards would be much easier than finished semiconductors. The lead time on that is quite long. I believe circuit boards can be redesigned on short notice quickly. Certainly quickly compared to photolithography.

 

[skyactiv]

Intel is building a plant near Columbus, Ohio. The Intel CEO is expecting Ohio to be the largest single silicon manufacturing location in the world.

A specialty uniform company that specializes in cleanroom laundry already set up a 68K SF 35 million dollar facility for when Ohio Intel needs their service.

The downfall is housing in and around Columbus is climbing faster than the national average because of our strong local economy and thousands of high income jobs that are coming.

 

[supton]

There's a few stateside PCB manufacturers who do ATE boards. I'd expect some of them can be ok on pricing for lower complexity boards that need to be cheap--thing is, labor isn't, and that is going to drive PCB cost when qty and price matters (which is why it's all overseas right now). But there are PCB fabs in the USA already. Sierra Proto, Royal Circuits, OSH Park, Advanced Circuits come to mind. Most of them do pick and place assembly, and hand soldering, and assembly beyond just the circuit board.

 

[y_p_w]

Intel is building a plant near Columbus, Ohio. The Intel CEO is expecting Ohio to be the largest single silicon manufacturing location in the world.

A specialty uniform company that specializes in cleanroom laundry already set up a 68K SF 35 million dollar facility for when Ohio Intel needs their service.

The downfall is housing in and around Columbus is climbing faster than the national average because of our strong local economy and thousands of high income jobs that are coming.

There is zero chance that anyone outdoes Hsinchu, Taiwan.

 

[OVERKILL]

There are production circuit boards being made in the United States. China is the world leader, but the technology to make printed circuit boards is nowhere near as exclusive as making the most advanced semiconductor processes.

Shifting production of printed circuit boards would be much easier than finished semiconductors. The lead time on that is quite long. I believe circuit boards can be redesigned on short notice quickly. Certainly quickly compared to photolithography.

Supermicro (who now basically only sells servers) used to make motherboards in the USA.

 

[y_p_w]

Supermicro (who now basically only sells servers) used to make motherboards in the USA.

It's really not that hard. This stuff is mostly made by machine. And the design can be done anywhere. Someone can design a board in the United States (and there are a lot of board design jobs in the US) but the design files are sent overseas to the production facilities.