ADV Check

[Spitty]

Can you check the effectivness of an Anti Drainback Valve by blowing into a filter?
It seems that any filter that will let air passed the valve will let oil past.

 

[T-Keith]

To some degree maybe, but I wouldn't buy a filter based on that test. Air is much different then oil.

-T

 

[Spitty]

But would you NOT buy the filter if you COULD blow through it?

 

[T-Keith]

I wouldn't rule out a filter just because you could blow through it. There are better indicators of an ADBVs effectiveness. Such as the time it take to build oil pressure and how much oil is in a filter when it is removed.

 

[Spitty]

Yes, but by then you have the filter on the car!
A few weeks ago I had a filter with a 'Bad' ADV and changed it. I figure, if I could (Gently) Blow in the centre hole and Feel/Hear air going past the ADV then hot oil would pass the same way

I have tried this with a new Purolator, and no matter how Gently or Hard I blow, no air gets past, Now I guess I have to find a known 'Bad' filter and try the same, or go through the racks at walmart and see if I can find one.
I hope I don't get thrown out the store as some Oil Filter Pervert

 

[Gary Allan]

This could be really hard to explain to the security guy ..as he plays back the tape of you opening a bunch of boxes and blowing into them.

This could make for a really awkward situation.


"Sir, could you come with us please?"
"Why want's the problem?"
"Sir, please come with us?"
"Why?"

If you're real quick ..maybe you can convince them that you're crazy and they'll just escort you out of the store ...but if you REALLY try and tell the truth ..no way will they believe you.

You will be a neo-Yankee in King Arthur's Court

 

[HardbodyLoyalist]

"These orange spawns of Satan are defective! DEFECTIVE, I TELL YOU! I can blow right through them! You're killing engines! KILLING THEM! YOU ALL HAVE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS!"

"Do what you want to ME, but for the love of Pete, SAVE THE ENGINES!"

 

[Filter guy]

Stop and think.

You have an oil pump sending flow to the filter under pressure which pushes the anti-drain away from the inlet holes to allow oil into and through the filter.

Then you shut the engine off. Flow and pressure stops.

The Anti-drain is there to prevent the oil from draining out when the motor is shut off.

It is the weight of the oil on the antidrain which closes it.

If you ever think your anti-drain ( either rubber or silicon) is leaking out oil, all you would have to do is take the filter off after the car has been sitting overnight. Is there still oil in the filter?

Stop and think. You don't need to blow air through a filter to know if the anti-drain works...

 

[Spitty]

I understand how these valves work, In my application the filter is mounted on it's side, so when the engine is not running, the ADV is subject to a Head Pressure of 0-3 inches (3 inches being the diamiter of the filter) this isnt much pressure to keep a faulty (open) valve closed.
I can imagine a Burr or Flashing during manufacture preventing a valve seating at this light pressure.
And, as I said, I would prefer to find a faulty filter 'Before' I fit it to my car.

 

[Spitty]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TallPaul:
Next time I buy a filter I am checking in the hole to make sure somebody didn't backwash it testing the ADV.

---

Hey, it's not like I use my tongue.

 

[Winston]

I must dissagree with Filter Guys logic. The drainback valve should be closed without any "weight" from the oil on it. Blowing in the filter is a good test of the ADBV. If you can blow through it the ADBV is probably warped and the weight of the oil will not unwarp it.

 

[labman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Winston:
snip... Blowing in the filter is a good test of the ADBV. If you can blow through it the ADBV is probably warped and the weight of the oil will not unwarp it.

---

Do you have any data to back up the flat statements you made? The rubber in a filter on the shelf is far different from the rubber in an operating engine. All rubber is more flexible at engine operating temperatures, and even the most oil resistant ones adsorb some oil, meaning the ABDV is larger and more flexible when you shut the engine off than on the shelf. It also has a column of oil reaching to the top of the engine pushing it shut. I come here for facts, not opinions.

 

[Spitty]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:

It also has a column of oil reaching to the top of the engine pushing it shut.

---

I don't think so!.... Sorry thats an opinion, could someone make it a fact

If you had two identical filters, one you could blow through, the other you could not, which would you rather use?

 

[TurboJim]

Just like a suction cup is going to stick better with a little bit of moisture on it I would speculate (no I haven't any hard data to back this up!) that a little oil is going to help the ADBV seal better.

 

[Filter guy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spitty:
I understand how these valves work, In my application the filter is mounted on it's side, so when the engine is not running, the ADV is subject to a Head Pressure of 0-3 inches (3 inches being the diamiter of the filter) this isnt much pressure to keep a faulty (open) valve closed.
I can imagine a Burr or Flashing during manufacture preventing a valve seating at this light pressure.
And, as I said, I would prefer to find a faulty filter 'Before' I fit it to my car.

---

Let me ask you this question, as you "understand how these valves work".

When you change your oil filter, does it have excess oil in it? More than what the media can absorb?

Is it pretty much full?

Isn't that your answer?

It is the weight of the oil that closes the anti-drain whether the filter is inverted or horizontally mounted.

If you don't want to believe that, that is your problem. I suggest you go to any filter lab and check out the testing equipment.

Next time you get a quart of oil, weigh it. Then pour it in your engine. Weigh the empty container. What's the weight difference?

Stop and think how much oil is in the filter, even a horizontal mount one. How much pressure will that oil exert due to the volume weight on the anti-drain when the engine is shut off?

As for burrs or flashings...have you ever seen the component parts built? Have you seen them go through parts washers and anti rust machines? Have you seen humans handle these parts during assembly?

If there are burrs on the threads...this won't effect the anti-drain. Burrs will come from machines that cut the threads. The other style is a "rolled" thread where all the metal stays in the thread and is not "sheared" off in the cutting process.( fyi..Champion labs rolls all their threads when they manufacture the backplate assembly)

If there are burrs inside on the inlet holes ( and I can't in 20 years of selling filters ever remember a case of this), this won't effect the anti-drain because the anti-drain is much wider than the inlet holes.

What you wipe out of the threads is dirt and grime that the back plate assembly accumulates after it comes out of the parts washing/anti-rust proceedure. Even though the part is dried it still can retain tiny bits of moisture in the threaded groove and this attracts some contaminant. But you knew that as well I bet...

 

[TallPaul]

Next time I buy a filter I am checking in the hole to make sure somebody didn't backwash it testing the ADV.

I do look in the center hole for misplaced glue and other odd things. Also there sometimes appear to be tiny metal shavings (or maybe paint shavings) in the threads. So I have been using an old tooth brush to clean the threads.

Am I obsessed with insignificant details?

 

[Spitty]

When I remove a fiter with a FAULTY ADV from my car (as I have in the past) it is not full of oil, which is why I would like to take precautions and not fit one in the first place.

Yes I do know how Flap valves work, I was on a team that developed Vacuum/Pressure seals for self priming centrifugal pumps.

Have you ever been swimming? Have you noticed how the water pressure increases as you dive to the bottom of the pool? This has nothing to do with how 'big' the pool is, the pressure ONLY increases with depth. So if a filter is fitted inverted (with the ADV at the bottom) the ADV will recive the full pressure of all the oil in the filter. If the filter is fitted on it's side, the uppermost portion of the ADV will only be at ambient atmospheric pressure (NO pressure on the ADV from the oil), BUT pressure would increase toward the lower side (about 3" depth of oil), just like when you dive in a pool.

No, I didn't know how filters are made, I just suggested Flashings or Burrs as a naive, 'possible' reason why ADVs sometimes fail to do their job.

I have to ask you guys once more: Would you rather have a filter that you could 'proove' had a functional, air tight, one way, ADV. OR just assume it will be O.K. when you fit it on your car?

 

[Filter guy]

So you have oil flowing into a vertically mounted filter through the inlet holes. These holes are around the circumference of the element. Top, sides , bottom.

Explain what happens when the pressure of the oil flowing into the filter is stopped when the engine is shut off?

How long before the anti-drain valve collapses and seals off the inlet holes and what causes that?

 

[Spitty]

In a Vertically mounted filter, when the engine is running, oil enters the filter through the small holes in the circumference, LIFTS the ADV (Flap) enters into the filter body, passes through the filter media and back out into the engine. When the engine is tuned off the HEAD PRESSURE of the oil in the filter HELPS the ADV seal against the lower portion of the filter case, preventing the oil from flowing back through the small holes. In a VERTICALLY mounted filter the 'longer' the filter body (from base to dome) the higher the sealing pressure will be at the ADV, in fact, that pressure will increase by the square of the oil depth (a filter that is 6" from base to dome will exert 4 times the pressure on the ADV than a 3" filter. The higher the pressure the better the seal!)
Now, mount this filter on it's side (horizontally) In order to visualize things lets say the ADV is on the Left, Filter Dome on the right. The filter fills when the engine is running as above, When the engine is turned off, the filter is still full of oil BUT the pressure that oil exerts on the ADV is now different! The oil finds it's level in the filter, and at the oils surface, where it meets the ADV, pressure exerted on this portion of the valve will be '0' (Remember the swimming pool, pressure ONLY increases with depth, regardless if it's a small pool or the pacific ocean!) At the bottom, pressure on the ADV will be higher, but the pressure/oil depth will be limited by the filters diameter (not it's length, Remember we're Horizontal now)
Still the ADV 'should' seal, but it won't have as much help from the oil depth/pressure as when the filter is vertical. To make matters worse, if at any point in the ADVs circumference it does leak, the level will drop to that point, and even less pressure will be exerted on the remaining portion of the seal.

I think this is a case where a diagram would be worth a thousand words.

My point is that (At least in a Horizontal installation) the ADV should not have to rely on oil head (Depth) pressure in order to do it's job and seal.

I do accept the idea that the ADV may be more pliable when warm or immersed in oil, However, I would rather have one that is 'known' to seal cold and dry.

 

[Spitty]

I did notice that my oil warning light was taking longer to go out (I tend to always watch this when I start from cold, but in this case even when I re-started after a few mins, the light would stay on for about 3 seconds)
I could also feel the Filter Can would 'cool' quite quickly after I shut off. And Yes when I did remove it, it was empty. Sorry I did not cut it open, too messy.
For what it's worth it was a Pureone L10241.