Additive Ratios

Robbie Alexander · Dec 21, 2003

Which additives have an affinity for Which other
additives in their % relationship, and what is the accepted margin or range in a perfectly running engine?

MolaKule · Dec 21, 2003

I think you're asking the wrong question.

Certain additives act synergistically with other additives.

Not sure about the second question. Could you clarify, thanks.

Scotto · Dec 22, 2003

Mola,

I'll take a shot: are there a particular group additives that work synergistically in a manner benefitting an automotive internal combustion engine?

Hope this is clear enough,

S

Robbie Alexander · Dec 22, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Scotto:
Mola,

I'll take a shot: are there a particular group additives that work synergistically in a manner benefitting an automotive internal combustion engine?

Hope this is clear enough,

S

And what is their % (or balance) and what is the level or margin for error which will maintain this balance.
ie
Calcium @ 3000 PPM would make up X% of A,
Y% of B,
Z% of C...
if properly balanced in a healthy engine.

MolaKule · Dec 22, 2003

MoDTC and ZDDP act syngergistcally to provde Anti-Wear/Friction Modification/Anti-Oxidation. Magnesium and Calcium act synergistcally to provide the proper basing (TBN), and act as cleaning and dispersing agents.

The optimum ratios are highly dependent on the type(s) of additve chemistry in the additive mix. Chemical interaction of each additive is done through extensive chemical/mechanical testing and electron microscopy analysis of the wear surfaces, etc.

Here is an older SF/CC additive mix for PCMO petroleum oils:

Additive
Dispersant - 4.0%
Polymer Amine

Rust Inhibitor - 1.0%
An alkaline agent of High BAse Sulfonate

Anti-Oxidant/Antiwear
ZDDP - A - 0.8%
ZDDP - B - 0.5%

Primary Detergent - 0.5%
Low Base Sulfonate

Secondary Antioxidant - 0.5%
Sulfurized hydrocarbn

Friction Reducer - 0.7%
Sulferized Fat or ester

Viscosity Index Improver - 10%
Ethylene-Propylene Copolymer

Total Additives - 18%

SF/CD Diesel oil Additive Package:

Dispersant - 6.0%
Polymer Amine

Detergent - 0.5%
High BAse Phenate

Detergent/Antioxidant - 1.5%
Low Base Phenate

Primary Detergent - 1.5%
Low Base Sulfonate

Rust Inhibitor - 0.5%
High Base Sulfonate

Anti-Oxidant/Antiwear - 1.5%
ZDDP

Total Additive Package 11.5%

Robbie Alexander · Dec 22, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
MoDTC and ZDDP act syngergistcally to provde Anti-Wear/Friction Modification/Anti-Oxidation. -*-*-*

How FAR can any or each one be from these numbers before the brew is not in the GRADE? I.E. 3%, 7% ??? so if one is say .45% of the VOLUME and it is off by "X"% before it is not 'IN GRADE'

MolaKule · Dec 22, 2003

Again, the optimum ratios are highly dependent on the type(s) of additve chemistry in the additive mix.

A greater amount of one additive may have an adverse affect on some of the other additives. For example, too much detergent may wipe out the effect of ZDDP adhering to a metal surface; too much magnesium succinimide may cause gelling; adding more of one or more of the AW's may actually increase friction and wear.

Normally, after testing the formulation and being satisfied with the results, the chemist/chemical engineer wants to hold the additive levels to within +, - 150 ppm or tighter, depending on the individual additive component.

[ December 23, 2003, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

Scotto · Dec 22, 2003

Mola,

Thankyou for the explanation, it is very helpful.

Scotto

Robbie Alexander · Dec 23, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
-*-*-*
Normally, after testing the formulation and being satisfied with the results, the chemist/chemical engineer wants to hold the additive levels to within +, - 150 ppm or tighter, depending on the individual additive component.

So, I GUESS I could just ballpark it and call it 100+,- PPM.
I guess you are saying that PPM is better to work with, WHY, maybe is it more CONSTANT? ie one part compared to another regardless of the volumetric ratios...

Let me ask you this: Say for instance the brew is mixed a little fast and a little HOT and packaged like so... more than likely there will be fall out because too much additive was placed into the oil and settled out...
Now, if this happened would it be likely that one or more additives are out of balance from the start, or will all of them have gotten equally saturated into the brew?

MolaKule · Dec 23, 2003

You can use % Weight/Weight if you desire:

Here are some examples.
0.005% = 50 ppm
0.05% = 500 ppm
0.5% = 5000 ppm
1.0% = 10,000 ppm, etc.

Additives are testest for miscisbility (mixability and solvency) so they do not "fall out." Most base oils and additive are mixed warm and with turbulent flows since heat "activates" and turbulence aids the mixing process.

Robbie Alexander · Dec 24, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
-*-*
Additives are testest for miscisbility (mixability and solvency) so they do not "fall out." *-*-

Sure they do, if there was TOO much placed into the brew! and when setting tooo long naturally... but it can happen.

Robbie Alexander · Dec 29, 2003

MolaKule, I had a thought!

What IF, the brew is based not per se just on the volume... What IF, the brew is more created / engineered on the BASIS:
of HOW much and oil can HOLD ADDITIVES and WASTE?

What IF, in a normal oil, you could have say 40,000 PPM of stuff floating around, and in an oil that was better it was 50-60,000 PPM, and an El cheapo was say 15,000 PPM... What if they designers of the brew decide, Hey, we've got XXX-PPM to work with, and base the additives at least partly on THIS?
What say Ye?

quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
You can use % Weight/Weight if you desire:

Here are some examples.
0.005% = 50 ppm
0.05% = 500 ppm
0.5% = 5000 ppm
1.0% = 10,000 ppm, etc.

Additives are testest for miscisbility (mixability and solvency) so they do not "fall out." Most base oils and additive are mixed warm and with turbulent flows since heat "activates" and turbulence aids the mixing process.

MolaKule · Jan 2, 2004

Robbie,

I answered previously and unequivically that additives do not fall out. They may decompose over time, but additive reserve replenishes their functionality.

Additive research and testing determines how much of each additive is required. The amount of each additive component is determined by it's effectiveness and longevity, not by how much additive the base oil can hold. The base oil has to be at least 75% by volume in order to provide basic lubricity and cooling. The better the base oil characteristics, the fewer additives that are required. Additives enhance the base oil because there is no perfect and economical base oil that can do everything.

Robbie Alexander · Jan 3, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
Robbie,

I answered previously and unequivically that additives do not fall out. They may decompose over time, but additive reserve replenishes their functionality.
----
A:
I don't plan on getting in a war here over the matter But I too responded to your statement.
That yes they CAN, in general yes, they don't and usually never will but they CAN fall out!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MolaKule:
-*-*
Additives are testest for miscisbility (mixability and solvency) so they do not "fall out." *-*-
--------------------------------

Sure they do, if there was TOO much placed into the brew! and when setting tooo long naturally... but it can happen.
------------------------------------------------

Additive research and testing determines how much of each additive is required. The amount of each additive component is determined by it's effectiveness and longevity, not by how much additive the base oil can hold. The base oil has to be at least 75% by volume in order to provide basic lubricity and cooling. The better the base oil characteristics, the fewer additives that are required. Additives enhance the base oil because there is no perfect and economical base oil that can do everything.

Okay, I can accept this one here. I was hoping I was on to something I had floating around.

Can you answer me about HOW much PPM of all additives and OIL can have?

What is MAX additives PPM before FALL-OUT would begin?

Also, would this LIMIT how much contamination is held in suspension in any way?

sbc350gearhead · Jan 11, 2004

Molakule.......Would the type of base stock used affect the proper additive ratio?

MolaKule · Jan 11, 2004

SBC,

Absolutely. The base oil would determine the treatment rates for each additive component.

The specific additive would also have to be selected on basis of base oil type and the base oil's solubility.

RobWest · Jan 11, 2004

Uh, newbie here. This is way over my head

carry on

Robbie Alexander · Jan 12, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:
SBC,

Absolutely. The base oil would determine the treatment rates for each additive component.

The specific additive would also have to be selected on basis of base oil type and the base oil's solubility.

Then again, please if you will...
If an oil, any oil given as an example, say:
"X" Oil
with a solubility of 40,000 PPM

INcluding OR exCLUDING the additives
What % of this would be the additives
and what% the area for the contaminates

Additive Ratios

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