Well, I did finally crawl up in there and took a look at the condenser. Holy Cow Batman, it's absolutely full of small peebles, sand, bugs, etc. etc. There is no way I have enough time to sit there and go through that whole thing with a small flat head screw driver. How else could I at least flush it out? Reverse water blast?
Adding 134a refrigerant
- Thread starter Schmoe
- Start date
- Status
Kestas
Staff member
For all my cars that have an "open" grille, I add 1/4" hardware cloth just behind the grille to catch the debris. For those of you that catch rocks on your windshield, you need to appreciate the action going on closer to the surface of the road. All it takes is a good sized rock to take out a condenser and leave you with a $400 repair bill.
You can go to an AC supply house and get a fin comb. It is primarily used to straighten the fins, but it would get out most of the debris also.
Just go to Walmart and buy a refrigerant gauge and valve assembly. It hooks to the low pressure port, and you test the pressure by running the AC on full blast (highest fan setting and MAX AC/Recirculate). I've done this on a few cars. If the pressure reads low, you need a top off. Some kits come with a can of R134-A, others don't. Open the valve on the gauge and hose assembly, and when the pressure reaches the optimal range, close the valve. Takes 10 min and it works great. There is no need to evacuate and refill the system, and nothing escapes either. The gauge ensures no overfilling as well. Here is what I bought and used:
http://www.id-usa.com/product.asp?CID=27&PID=75
http://www.id-usa.com/product.asp?CID=27&PID=75
Putting the system under a vacuum using professional equipment is important for two reasons. Firstly, the system can't have any moisture or contaminants in it, and placing it under a vacuum removes all of the moisture from the system. Secondly, it tests the system for leaks. If the system can't hold the vacuum for at least 30 minutes without losing pressure, you shouldn't be adding refrigerant to it anyway, since it's not going to hold for long.
There is much more to the operation of an A/C system than just "having enough refrigerant."
There is much more to the operation of an A/C system than just "having enough refrigerant."
I had a 98 Lincoln Continental that was leaking 134a. Would refill and it continued to leak. Saw a local A/C person who told me that it was leaking from the evaporator, under the dash, and that it was going to cost me $xxx.xx. I told him that I could not pay that much, so he advised me to go to NAPA, and buy a couple cans of Stop Leak, and that would help. OK, I did just that. At first, the Stop Leak slowed down the leak so I only had to refill once a week. Added more Stop Leak, and then, only had to refill once a month. Added more, and when I sold the car, I had not added any in over a year. STOP LEAK (from NAPA), WORKED FOR ME.
Whenever I've added 134a (or even R12 years ago) I never evacuated the system out, as long as there was still pressure in the system. (If there was pressure in the system, and the compressor would cycle quickly, air did not enter, only 134a leaked out). I would just add, and never had problems.
I always add a "bug" screen in front of the condensor/radiator, as soon as I bring a new car home. Here in Florida, when it is "Love Bug Season" (May and September), I also add an additional screen in front of the grill.
Whenever I've added 134a (or even R12 years ago) I never evacuated the system out, as long as there was still pressure in the system. (If there was pressure in the system, and the compressor would cycle quickly, air did not enter, only 134a leaked out). I would just add, and never had problems.
I always add a "bug" screen in front of the condensor/radiator, as soon as I bring a new car home. Here in Florida, when it is "Love Bug Season" (May and September), I also add an additional screen in front of the grill.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
The only correct way to add refrigerant is to have it done professionally.
Or do it yourself the right way (I could say "do it yourself professionally").
I guarantee you I'm a *lot* more pedantic about service procedures than 90% of the "professionals" out there.
PS- The words "professionally" and "Pep Boys" in the same post? You GOTTA be kidding me.
The only correct way to add refrigerant is to have it done professionally.
Or do it yourself the right way (I could say "do it yourself professionally").
I guarantee you I'm a *lot* more pedantic about service procedures than 90% of the "professionals" out there.
PS- The words "professionally" and "Pep Boys" in the same post? You GOTTA be kidding me.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: The Critic
The only correct way to add refrigerant is to have it done professionally.
Or do it yourself the right way (I could say "do it yourself professionally").
I guarantee you I'm a *lot* more pedantic about service procedures than 90% of the "professionals" out there.
PS- The words "professionally" and "Pep Boys" in the same post? You GOTTA be kidding me.
I'd rather take my car to Pep Boys than to some of the independents in my area.
Unless you have a RobinAir, Snap-On, etc A/C machine with a scale that measures down to the hundredth of an ounce, then I don't know how you'd do a better job than someone who is using the machine.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
The only correct way to add refrigerant is to have it done professionally.
Or do it yourself the right way (I could say "do it yourself professionally").
I guarantee you I'm a *lot* more pedantic about service procedures than 90% of the "professionals" out there.
PS- The words "professionally" and "Pep Boys" in the same post? You GOTTA be kidding me.
I'd rather take my car to Pep Boys than to some of the independents in my area.
Unless you have a RobinAir, Snap-On, etc A/C machine with a scale that measures down to the hundredth of an ounce, then I don't know how you'd do a better job than someone who is using the machine.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Unless you have a RobinAir, Snap-On, etc A/C machine with a scale that measures down to the hundredth of an ounce, then I don't know how you'd do a better job than someone who is using the machine.
Really it's the machine that does all the work. As long as the operator has some clue as to what they're doing, you should be fine.
Unless you have a RobinAir, Snap-On, etc A/C machine with a scale that measures down to the hundredth of an ounce, then I don't know how you'd do a better job than someone who is using the machine.
Really it's the machine that does all the work. As long as the operator has some clue as to what they're doing, you should be fine.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Unless you have a RobinAir, Snap-On, etc A/C machine with a scale that measures down to the hundredth of an ounce, then I don't know how you'd do a better job than someone who is using the machine.
Well, measuring to even a 10th of an ounce is FAR less important than just making sure you get every last bit of air with its moisture out of every charging hose before you make the connection... including venting a puff just before you press the quick-connect on (which strictly speaking, shops aren't legally allowed to do). And there are lots of other little details that make a difference with a refrigerant and oil that are so sensitive to contamination.
Like I said, I'm *way* more pedantic (that's also spelled a-n-a-l) about little details than most shops are. I almost never have to bring my own work back to myself... can't say that about many shops.
Unless you have a RobinAir, Snap-On, etc A/C machine with a scale that measures down to the hundredth of an ounce, then I don't know how you'd do a better job than someone who is using the machine.
Well, measuring to even a 10th of an ounce is FAR less important than just making sure you get every last bit of air with its moisture out of every charging hose before you make the connection... including venting a puff just before you press the quick-connect on (which strictly speaking, shops aren't legally allowed to do). And there are lots of other little details that make a difference with a refrigerant and oil that are so sensitive to contamination.
Like I said, I'm *way* more pedantic (that's also spelled a-n-a-l) about little details than most shops are. I almost never have to bring my own work back to myself... can't say that about many shops.
It took me a long time to understand why it is better to have the AC serviced by a pro rather than a quick do it yourself home fix. I personally know someone who had a 5 year old AC which was not blowing as it should. First this person engaged in a home fill it up scenario which did not cure the fix. Later, on my advice this person took their AC to a professional shop to have it evacuated, vacuum tested, and re-charged with the appropriate amount. This by far has been the fastest bowing cold AC of any used car I knew.
So my question deals with whether one should not even attempt to measure the pressure in order to avoid introducing dirt, air, and moisture inside the system? Would it just be advisable to take an AC for a complete evacuate, check and recharge every couple of years to extend the life of the components? I was amazed at how a properly recharged AC worked, although the components were roughly 5 years old.
So my question deals with whether one should not even attempt to measure the pressure in order to avoid introducing dirt, air, and moisture inside the system? Would it just be advisable to take an AC for a complete evacuate, check and recharge every couple of years to extend the life of the components? I was amazed at how a properly recharged AC worked, although the components were roughly 5 years old.
I don't think you need to evac and recharge every 5 years. One of the best things you can do to prevent leaks in the future is to run the A/C maybe once a week during the winter or during periods when you normally wouldn't use it. That way, the oil in the system can circulate and get to the seals and rubber O-Rings and keep them pliable.
One thing that's known to kill seals and O-rings and create leaks that will totally discharge the system is a lack of use.
One thing that's known to kill seals and O-rings and create leaks that will totally discharge the system is a lack of use.
Most systems run the compressor in defrost mode, if it's not too cold outside.
Originally Posted By: kgb007stb
So my question deals with whether one should not even attempt to measure the pressure in order to avoid introducing dirt, air, and moisture inside the system?
You will NEVER "introduce" dirt air etc. into a refrigeration system simply by measuring the pressures, provided you follow standard practices (which do not include quick one-hose charge cans that are sold in auto parts stores!). The pressure in the system is HIGHER than in a manifold gauge set of the type that should be used, so when you hook up to the system, a small amount of refrigerant will flow INTO the gauges. If you keep the gauge set properly sealed when not in use, there's absolutely no way for reverse contamination to occur. Now if you hook an ancient gauge set that was used with R-12 and left hanging open in the garage, then your AC system cycles while you're testing it- you can get some reversion. So DON'T DO THAT. Same goes for buying a can of R-134a with a built-in gauge. DON'T DO THAT- those things are death in a can.
Originally Posted By: kgb007stb
Would it just be advisable to take an AC for a complete evacuate, check and recharge every couple of years to extend the life of the components? I was amazed at how a properly recharged AC worked, although the components were roughly 5 years old.
ABSOLUTELY NOT! The very best thing you can do for a WORKING A/C system is LEAVE IT ALONE. The more you tamper with it, the more the odds of contaminating it. Discharging and recharging as "preventive maintenance" is a good way to SHORTEN the life of the system.
Once performance degrades, then its time to take some measurements, but not just blindly drain and refill. It might be that measurements show the pressures are fine, and the performance problem is related to dirt in the cooling fins (condensor) or mold/dirt blocking the evaporator, or a bad compressor clutch, or any number of other things NOT related directly to the refrigerant and oil inside the system.
Why people treat AC systems like black magic is beyond me. IF you are mechanically inclined, then they're simple pumps and valves. Big deal. Know it. Live it. Fix it. Enjoy cold air. If you're not mechanically inclined, then sure- take it to a pro.
Same goes for automatic transmissions. A clean work area, a set of feeler gauges, and a good set of snap-ring pliers.
So my question deals with whether one should not even attempt to measure the pressure in order to avoid introducing dirt, air, and moisture inside the system?
You will NEVER "introduce" dirt air etc. into a refrigeration system simply by measuring the pressures, provided you follow standard practices (which do not include quick one-hose charge cans that are sold in auto parts stores!). The pressure in the system is HIGHER than in a manifold gauge set of the type that should be used, so when you hook up to the system, a small amount of refrigerant will flow INTO the gauges. If you keep the gauge set properly sealed when not in use, there's absolutely no way for reverse contamination to occur. Now if you hook an ancient gauge set that was used with R-12 and left hanging open in the garage, then your AC system cycles while you're testing it- you can get some reversion. So DON'T DO THAT. Same goes for buying a can of R-134a with a built-in gauge. DON'T DO THAT- those things are death in a can.
Originally Posted By: kgb007stb
Would it just be advisable to take an AC for a complete evacuate, check and recharge every couple of years to extend the life of the components? I was amazed at how a properly recharged AC worked, although the components were roughly 5 years old.
ABSOLUTELY NOT! The very best thing you can do for a WORKING A/C system is LEAVE IT ALONE. The more you tamper with it, the more the odds of contaminating it. Discharging and recharging as "preventive maintenance" is a good way to SHORTEN the life of the system.
Once performance degrades, then its time to take some measurements, but not just blindly drain and refill. It might be that measurements show the pressures are fine, and the performance problem is related to dirt in the cooling fins (condensor) or mold/dirt blocking the evaporator, or a bad compressor clutch, or any number of other things NOT related directly to the refrigerant and oil inside the system.
Why people treat AC systems like black magic is beyond me. IF you are mechanically inclined, then they're simple pumps and valves. Big deal. Know it. Live it. Fix it. Enjoy cold air. If you're not mechanically inclined, then sure- take it to a pro.
Same goes for automatic transmissions. A clean work area, a set of feeler gauges, and a good set of snap-ring pliers.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
You will NEVER "introduce" dirt air etc. into a refrigeration system simply by measuring the pressures, provided you follow standard practices (which do not include quick one-hose charge cans that are sold in auto parts stores!). The pressure in the system is HIGHER than in a manifold gauge set of the type that should be used, so when you hook up to the system, a small amount of refrigerant will flow INTO the gauges. If you keep the gauge set properly sealed when not in use, there's absolutely no way for reverse contamination to occur.
You will contaminate the system with air/whatever is in the gauges and lines if you don't purge the hose at the manifold end (if using a commercial refrig/a-c type manifold) regardless of the system being under pressure.
The refrigerant under pressure just pushes the non-condensables and moisture (if present) up to the gauge end of the hose, then just mixes with the refrigerant in the line, so there's a fair chance that by the time you take your gauges off the service valve the mixed contaminants have mixed enough for a % to make their way into the system.
It's also a good idea to connect the suction line up while the compressor is not running, otherwise you will contaminate the system if it is running on a vacuum (liquid line blockage, faulty or internally iced up TXV, very short of refrigerant, iced up FDC, FDC fan failure, etc)
Far less likely to contaminate with a quick connect fitting at the service fitting end, if the hose is already under pressure or has been purged.
BTW, it's illegal for non licensed people to work on or service any a/c or refrig system over here, and impossible to buy refrigerant without a Federal 'Refrigerant Trading Authorisation' thanks to federal EPA dictates.
You will NEVER "introduce" dirt air etc. into a refrigeration system simply by measuring the pressures, provided you follow standard practices (which do not include quick one-hose charge cans that are sold in auto parts stores!). The pressure in the system is HIGHER than in a manifold gauge set of the type that should be used, so when you hook up to the system, a small amount of refrigerant will flow INTO the gauges. If you keep the gauge set properly sealed when not in use, there's absolutely no way for reverse contamination to occur.
You will contaminate the system with air/whatever is in the gauges and lines if you don't purge the hose at the manifold end (if using a commercial refrig/a-c type manifold) regardless of the system being under pressure.
The refrigerant under pressure just pushes the non-condensables and moisture (if present) up to the gauge end of the hose, then just mixes with the refrigerant in the line, so there's a fair chance that by the time you take your gauges off the service valve the mixed contaminants have mixed enough for a % to make their way into the system.
It's also a good idea to connect the suction line up while the compressor is not running, otherwise you will contaminate the system if it is running on a vacuum (liquid line blockage, faulty or internally iced up TXV, very short of refrigerant, iced up FDC, FDC fan failure, etc)
Far less likely to contaminate with a quick connect fitting at the service fitting end, if the hose is already under pressure or has been purged.
BTW, it's illegal for non licensed people to work on or service any a/c or refrig system over here, and impossible to buy refrigerant without a Federal 'Refrigerant Trading Authorisation' thanks to federal EPA dictates.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
[snip]2) Put a manifold gauge set on the system so you can monitor high-side and low-side pressures. [snip]
Like this? CPS Products R134a Pro-Set® Aluminum Block Manifold Gauge Set with Hoses
[snip]2) Put a manifold gauge set on the system so you can monitor high-side and low-side pressures. [snip]
Like this? CPS Products R134a Pro-Set® Aluminum Block Manifold Gauge Set with Hoses
- Status
