9,000-mile results are in!

[Pablo]

No one is shooting any messengers.

The fact remains that the modified TBN method choosen by Blackstone may not be that great of an indicator of reserve ability to nuetralize acidic by-products. Sure the number moves and it's been more or less the same halfway into the M1 portion, but what the heck is the harm in another lab running one test???? Is there something to hide? No, so just do it. Heck I'll pay!

"OAI sucks"

Now that's truly constructive. OAI is the best lab I've seen - tell me what is wrong with OAI?. No problem in general with Blackstone and I actually have seen no "lab bashing", but there is more to a lab than popularity.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Wacky spectometry in the past. Guess it's just a "feeling". Something like that.



Don't have a problem running other TBNs. Sounds like satterfi has sent him Dexsil kits...he should run those. That is the the alternate method that was used with M1.

[ June 15, 2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[Bio-T]

Let's keep the discussion on track with no personal bashing.

 

[73Duster]

Is it possible that the amsoil is actually cleaning out the engine from sludge, deposits, etc., left over or caused by the long drain interval of the M1 and this is causing the rapid drop in TBN? Was some type of cleaning cycle done before the amsoil test? Wasn't the M1 test done during colder climate which would cause more oil dilution from fuel and more combustion blow-by until the engine is at op temp and also a new engine? There seams to be too many variables and is not an apples to apples test. IMO the only way to qualify this test is to run M1 after this and then Amsoil again and document weather and driving conditions (%hwy, %city, %mountains, %stoplight racing, etc. during the test. IMHO these first two tests should be baseline tests only and the next two the actual results.

 

[3 Mad Ponchos]

There was a 3,000-mile flush period between the M1 test and the Amsoil test. The flush used the exact same type of oil as is currently being tested.

The Mobil 1 test lasted from November 2002 to September 2003. The Amsoil test also started in November.

The Amsoil test is not accumulating miles at the same pace as the Mobil 1 test. That's the problem with real-world tests, you can't always control the real world as much as you'd like. But if I did a laboratory test, everyone would say that an engine on a stand in the garage doesn't reflect the real world.

Roughly 50/50 highway/city, probably a slight bias toward highway in terms of miles, closer to even in terms of operating hours. Call it 95% mountains. 0% racing.

The Mobil 1 results are definitely skewed somewhat by the fact that at 10,000 miles the engine wasn't fully broken in. However I believe this is mostly limited to the copper readings.

I'm investigating options for a second test at the 10k sample. I'll also run a Dexsil kit.

Am I caught up on the questions?

Cheers, 3MP

 

[Richin Chicago]

quote:

---

Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos:
There was a 3,000-mile flush period between the M1 test and the Amsoil test. The flush used the exact same type of oil as is currently being tested.

The Mobil 1 test lasted from November 2002 to September 2003. The Amsoil test also started in November.

The Amsoil test is not accumulating miles at the same pace as the Mobil 1 test. That's the problem with real-world tests, you can't always control the real world as much as you'd like. But if I did a laboratory test, everyone would say that an engine on a stand in the garage doesn't reflect the real world.

Roughly 50/50 highway/city, probably a slight bias toward highway in terms of miles, closer to even in terms of operating hours. Call it 95% mountains. 0% racing.

The Mobil 1 results are definitely skewed somewhat by the fact that at 10,000 miles the engine wasn't fully broken in. However I believe this is mostly limited to the copper readings.

I'm investigating options for a second test at the 10k sample. I'll also run a Dexsil kit.

Am I caught up on the questions?

Cheers, 3MP

---

If any of us want to help defer the cost of this expensive study is there information on where to contribute?

 

[JohnBrowning]

I do not see were their is any issue. Blackstone has consistently turned in consistent numbers. WHile their TBN method of calibration is differnet to say the least it is consistent. THe latter TBN testing done on the M1 run were done with this exact same method!! We have an apples to apples comparison!!!! TO make it even more consistent we have 1000 miles testing intevals. If this was simply a bad sample or a lab error it would self correct itself at the next UOA!

Any testing outside of the established protcol from a different lab would not be usuable in the study. Even the Dexsil test is not going to be usable to the study for offical recorded purpose. It will at best let use know if their was a lab error or sampleing error. It will at worst stir the hornets nest! Their are too many Amsoil sales man clamering for a retest or change of venue! I think it is in all partys best interest to let lieing dogs lie for the time being! It will be time for another UOA soon and it will reflect if the previous one was a fluke or not!!!!

Surely everyone can agree that if this testing protocal was ok for M1 it is equaly ok for Amsoil! I think it is fair to rule out a conspricy by 3MP blackstone labs. I also think that it would be unlikely that two poor TBN results in a row could be blamed on the lab!

 

[Rat407]

Don't want to cause any problems and I am no expert in any way. So here it goes.

Doesn't AMSOIL have a warranty with their oils? If the oil did cause a problem with the engine wouldn't they cover it? What do they have to say about this, not that bringing them in will solve anything from what I have read on this post. Is it that they would not cover it because an AMSOIL filter was not used? Why state on your product label that you can go 25k miles or one year which ever comes first if the product will not hold up as stated? I wonder how many individuals out there are doing just that without a clue to the damage that they might be causeing, or are they?

I wouldn't want to take a chance on my engine getting damaged just to try and prove a point. It would be different if AMSOIL would put it in writing that they would pay for all costs to this engine and to let the oil run till it trashed the engine to see just how long it would go. But this is reality, not a fantacy world that we would like to live in.

Did Mobil retract their statement of extended drains back in the 80's to protect themselves, or to make more money on their product being used more with shorter drain intervals? Am I wrong or didn't they have the same statement of some kind on their oil bottles as well?

Untill Redline, Mobil, Royal Purple and AMSOIL all sit down and do a complete study on their oils together and become buddy buddy and crown a true winner, I don't see any way everyone will be happy with any results. Just isn't going to happen.

I find it hard for AMSOIL to continue to compete in the synthetic market as time goes on. It is to easy for a person to go to Wal-Mart and get Mobil 1 off the shelf when they need it at a great price. Not to mention other synthetics available, not saying they are on the same level as AMSOIL and Mobil but try to tell that to the general public that just doesn't care, to them synthetic is synthetic. Marketing plays a major roll and in today's world, it seems that the way AMSOIL is marketed how can it survive? Put AMSOIL on the shelf of Wal-Mart and it would kill the independent AMSOIL dealer. Wouldn't it?

3 Poncho's needs to do what they feel is in their best interest. If it wasn't for them this very interesting and informative test wouldn't even be here for us to enjoy.

"3", Thanks for providing this information and for all your time involved in providing us with this info.

 

[Spector]

" Marketing plays a major roll and in today's world, it seems that the way AMSOIL is marketed how can it survive? Put AMSOIL on the shelf of Wal-Mart and it would kill the independent AMSOIL dealer. Wouldn't it?"

AJ Instituted a policy at Amsoil that a commercial customer can have no more then 10 retail outlets, if more then ten the dealer cannot sell to that chain (store cannot sel Amsoil) in order to keep the dealer network intact. Redline, on the other hand, mandates that to be a dealer you "must" have a retail outlet. Thus, anyone can be an Amsoil dealer. That is probably why you now see Redline in Advance Auto and not Amsoil.

 

[wulimaster]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
Mobil was tested with same TBN method...get over it.

OAI sucks.

NOBODY does a real ASTM TBN test for $20! it takes FAR too long!

Have a nice day!

---

OAI is just private label CTC Analytical Services. Now Staveley Services.

So you are really saying CTC sucks.

Why don't you call them up and ask what test they perform for TBN and get back to us with an informed answer.

 

[Bill Morris]

quote:

---

---

Did Mobil retract their statement of extended drains back in the 80's to protect themselves, or to make more money on their product being used more with shorter drain intervals? Am I wrong or didn't they have the same statement of some kind on their oil bottles as well?

quote:

---

---

Think Mobil realized to sell it's synthetic...to sell it's product was to gain consumer confidence that the warranty issue with synthetic oil was not negated with using synthetic oil.

The consumer works 6 days a week, got to pay his rent, telephone bills, water bills..etc and he saves his money for that dream vehicle he wants to own. He thinks of Mobil 1 and learns of synthetic oil...I want a warranty talk is this synthetic oil going to produce a cushion for better protection than dino. The consumer and the public learns of synthetic oil.

The general consumer is conservative...He remembers how HARD he had to work to own his vehicle..it's not FREE...He wants to know what he puts into his engine!!!!....I think Mobil took that approach to reach the public and gain consumer confidence....

 

[Patman]

Will we ever see this car hit the 10,000 mile mark?

 

[Pablo]

Patman - I was thinking the same thing....

 

[cheetahdriver]

Has anyone talked to 3MP lately? Was wondering if they had a wreck, or had been called away on an extended trip, or been whacked by a crazed amsoil dealer.

should have made 10k by now.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by cheetahdriver:
Has anyone talked to 3MP lately? Was wondering if they had a wreck, or had been called away on an extended trip, or been whacked by a crazed amsoil dealer.

should have made 10k by now.

---

He made a post in another thread yesterday and apologized that he's been driving his car less this year. He says the 10k point is coming soon.

 

[Eddie]

I agree with 59Vettman. The two oils are being subjected to the same analysis and the results have yielded that Mobil 1 is the winner. ed

 

[Pablo]

I say the the oils are NOT subjected to the same analysis when looking at the TBN. You are only judging by the TBN and Amsoil is the winner by lower wear metals, even if you consider break in.

I also say that if we really want to say the TBN is low, let's talk about why.....after looking at Amsoil TBN's in extended OCI's for 5+ years, I have hard time thinking something isn't wrong here. How is it that no one wants to discuss the "why"?

 

[Pablo]

Also, now at this point would like to state the oils are NOT being subjected to the same conditions, or even the same sampling techniques.

Lastly, if Amsoil TBN is killed so rapidly in a well tuned car, just do a search for Amsoil in UOA's and read the TBN's. I sampled a few:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001646#000000

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001626#000000

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001579#000000

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001566#000000

I left my 10K and 20K intervals out. My 20K miles OCI was with the ASL as well. The TBN was before the new Blackstone method but TBN was around 5 as I recall.

Again, I don't get what's going on in 3MP's car, but it's just not normal.

 

[buster]

We knew this war was comming at some point and it ain't going away anytime soon.

Look, I'm a fan a both M1 and Amsoil. On a wear basis, Amsoil wins hands down. Amsoil generally shows better Fe wear then M1. I'm convinced of it. Pb is about a tie. I think they both excell in different areas. Mobil 1 has excellent TBN retention, but Amsoil does as well like Pablo pointed out.

If the TBN holds for another 8k miles, which is possible, but unlikely, Amsoil could be in good shape. I really hate saying this bc I don't like making up excuses but I do think Amsoil has made their oils more robust recently. Some will rip me for saying this but look at how many times M1 has changed in a friggin year? M1 didn't always have Fe issues. Now it shows higher iron. It's not bad, but it shows somethng is up.

It's a tough call and while I expected more from Amsoil, it's not over yet and their is more factors in this test that play a role. My advice for Amsoil would be to look at this test and really take note of what Mobil is giving people at $4qt on the shelf of Walmart. Amsoil 100% HAS to do better for people to be persuaded, period.

 

[Dick in Falls Church]

I guess AMSOIL must be doing some persuading.
The base stock storage capability is being increased from 1 million gallons to 1.6 million.
The largest batch blender is currently 25,000 gallons. 2 new 50,000 gallon ones are being installed. Business has about doubled in the past 3 years.
I'm sure Mobil 1 sales have also increased.