quote:
Originally posted by Dominic:
Okay! Sorry I was wrongI know now!
[ November 13, 2002, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: RobZ71LM7 ]
80W-140 and Torsen Biasing
- Thread starter Dominic
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[ November 13, 2002, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: RobZ71LM7 ]
Is this a 1/2 ton? What year? Are you sure it doesn't state 75w90 synthetic? That's what all the '99-up GM trucks come with from the factory-I think the SUV's are the same. A lot of people claim you can get by without the additive and GM doesn't require it. I'm using Mobil 1 75w90 and plan on trying out the additive next time I change the fluid.
If you were wanting to use Red Line (good choice) you can just use the regular 75w90 gear oil. Already has the FM in it. Or you can get the 75w90NS and buy their FM separately and tune the diff yourself.
This is a Chevy Blazer SUV, 2WD with the G80 Eaton rear end. The manual does not specify synthetic, only regular 80W-90 gear oil. Eaton's site also says not to use synthetic for this LSD/Locking rear and but to use 80w90 conventional GL5 gear oil.
So....is the redline gear oil out as I was contemplating using? Anyone have this Eaton G80 rear end? If so, what are you using and can I use the redline synthetic gear oil? I'd like to as I like the product. The Eaton website message to use dino that concerns me...Thanks
So....is the redline gear oil out as I was contemplating using? Anyone have this Eaton G80 rear end? If so, what are you using and can I use the redline synthetic gear oil? I'd like to as I like the product. The Eaton website message to use dino that concerns me...Thanks
I seriously doubt you would have a problem running a synthetic back there - but if you're the least bit worried just buy some conventional oil and change it. I have heard bad rumors about synthetic in the rear but I hear theyre urban legends
I'm sure the redline or any high quality oil will be fine - regardless of Eaton's claim.
I'm sure the redline or any high quality oil will be fine - regardless of Eaton's claim.
Nick778, I would call Eaton, certainly if there's any warranty involved. They could well have a good reason that's been lost on the way to the web. They may have had issues with a certain synthetic playing with their clutches. Or it could just be a break-in thing for new installs.
In general, for non clutch/vc lockers, I'd barely hesitate to use high-end fluid even if against recommendation. For clutch or VC, or anything that's friction modifier sensitive, I'd study further. Carco may have learned something interesting.
Just never use synthetic in a lincoln locker.
David
In general, for non clutch/vc lockers, I'd barely hesitate to use high-end fluid even if against recommendation. For clutch or VC, or anything that's friction modifier sensitive, I'd study further. Carco may have learned something interesting.
Just never use synthetic in a lincoln locker.
David
On some aftermarket Eaton posi's synthetics have been known to cause binding and poor performance b/c they aren't compatible with the clutch material. They seem to be ok in gov-locks however.
After several emails and reclaification by Eaton(they had old part numbers), they recommend GM #12378261 75w-90 synthetic($28/gt) and Texaco dino gear oil 80w-90 part number 222316. The Texaco does not have friction modifier in it as FM is not beneficial to the metal clutch plates in the G80 gov/locker. Not sure about the GM synthetic but I believe it also does ntot have FM in it.
So, I'm going to try the 75w-90 Redline without the friction modifier and if there is any chatter, I'll mix with some of their 75w-90 with the FM already in it.
So, I'm going to try the 75w-90 Redline without the friction modifier and if there is any chatter, I'll mix with some of their 75w-90 with the FM already in it.
Sounds like a good plan. If FM is needed, you might just get one of their $5 FM bottles. I think it's easier to mix into an already filled diff (without dumping expensive gear oil).
David
Edit: I was going to say, I've used their 75W140NS with and without FM added, and have been very happy vs. generic GL5. No analysis results to back it up but we measured lower temps, noticed less noise. An axle seal leak stopped. For what it's worth.
[ November 16, 2002, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: OneQuartLow ]
David
Edit: I was going to say, I've used their 75W140NS with and without FM added, and have been very happy vs. generic GL5. No analysis results to back it up but we measured lower temps, noticed less noise. An axle seal leak stopped. For what it's worth.
[ November 16, 2002, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: OneQuartLow ]
Well I recently found out that heavier gear oil will infact give the torsen a higher bias. This is info I recieved from a National champ autcrosser. He autocrosses stock Camaro's and Firebird which use a torsen from the factory. They don't have enough torque bias from the factory (unlike the T-2 or T2R) so here's what he does...
Heavy Shockproof Gear Oil: This has been a big help in making the stock Torsen limited slips work better. The thicker oil film between the gear teeth add resistance that helps bias the power to the outside rear wheel more effectively. It also reduces gear noise, and does not thin out at elevated temperatures like standard gear oils. NOT FOR USE in high-bias differential units. This is all we use in F-Stock autocross cars with Torsen differentials. $8.59/quart.
75w90NS: Helps lock up worn or weak clutches limited slip differentials like the stock Auburn units in 1998 and older cars. No limited slip additive in this oil. You minimize the slipping of the clutches inside the differential. This oil will cause noises because it lacks limited slip additives. We have never had any kind of driveline trouble with this oil. My 1991 Camaro traveled over 50,000 miles with only this fluid in the axle. $8.29/quart.
75w90: Best suited for street use. Includes limited slip additives for quiet performance. Improves drivetrain efficiency 2-5%. Exceeds both GL-6 standards for gear protection. Helps reduce limited slip chatter, and lowers temperatures10-70 degrees F. $7.99/quart.
Heavy Shockproof Gear Oil: This has been a big help in making the stock Torsen limited slips work better. The thicker oil film between the gear teeth add resistance that helps bias the power to the outside rear wheel more effectively. It also reduces gear noise, and does not thin out at elevated temperatures like standard gear oils. NOT FOR USE in high-bias differential units. This is all we use in F-Stock autocross cars with Torsen differentials. $8.59/quart.
75w90NS: Helps lock up worn or weak clutches limited slip differentials like the stock Auburn units in 1998 and older cars. No limited slip additive in this oil. You minimize the slipping of the clutches inside the differential. This oil will cause noises because it lacks limited slip additives. We have never had any kind of driveline trouble with this oil. My 1991 Camaro traveled over 50,000 miles with only this fluid in the axle. $8.29/quart.
75w90: Best suited for street use. Includes limited slip additives for quiet performance. Improves drivetrain efficiency 2-5%. Exceeds both GL-6 standards for gear protection. Helps reduce limited slip chatter, and lowers temperatures10-70 degrees F. $7.99/quart.
i have locker axel on my 98 ford expedition and a posi- limited axel on my 98 crown vic..are these torsen? or who makes these?
The Torsen T-2 and T-2R are only available for the Ford 8.8" w/ 31 spline axles.
Your Crown Vic most likely has the clutch based Ford/Spicer Traction-Lok differential.
The Detroit TrueTrac, based on the T-2 design, is available for the Ford 8.8" w/ 28 spline axles.
I installed one on my Crown Vic and wrote up a tech article.
http://users.superford.org/metroplex/TT.html
The pic Bob showed is the Torsen T-1 design found on the AM General HMMWV. The pic I'm showing is a modified T-2 design sold by TracTech under the Detroit TrueTrac name. The torque biasing is designed for 2.5 to 3.5 : 1
I am currently using Valvoline Synpower 75W-90 + Pennzoil Super 75W-90 gear oil to break in the differential. Once its done, I'm using Redline Synthetic 75W-90.
Redline 80W-140 is going into the Dana 60 + Traction-Lok in the rear of the E-250.
As for the Torsen vs Clutch debate:
For hotrod drag racing, use a Detroit Locker.
For occaisonal hotrod drag racing and street use, go with a clutch based LSD.
For pure street and sub 400 hp/lb-ft drag racing, go with a Torsen.
The Torsen does not have full lock up and easily turns into an open differential in the turns, but is also pretty responsive - hence its usefulness on the street/off-roading. But do NOT plan on any super fuelie drag racing with Torsen units.
FYI 98-up F-bodies, IIRC, come with Torsen differentials.
Your Crown Vic most likely has the clutch based Ford/Spicer Traction-Lok differential.
The Detroit TrueTrac, based on the T-2 design, is available for the Ford 8.8" w/ 28 spline axles.
I installed one on my Crown Vic and wrote up a tech article.
http://users.superford.org/metroplex/TT.html
The pic Bob showed is the Torsen T-1 design found on the AM General HMMWV. The pic I'm showing is a modified T-2 design sold by TracTech under the Detroit TrueTrac name. The torque biasing is designed for 2.5 to 3.5 : 1
I am currently using Valvoline Synpower 75W-90 + Pennzoil Super 75W-90 gear oil to break in the differential. Once its done, I'm using Redline Synthetic 75W-90.
Redline 80W-140 is going into the Dana 60 + Traction-Lok in the rear of the E-250.
As for the Torsen vs Clutch debate:
For hotrod drag racing, use a Detroit Locker.
For occaisonal hotrod drag racing and street use, go with a clutch based LSD.
For pure street and sub 400 hp/lb-ft drag racing, go with a Torsen.
The Torsen does not have full lock up and easily turns into an open differential in the turns, but is also pretty responsive - hence its usefulness on the street/off-roading. But do NOT plan on any super fuelie drag racing with Torsen units.
FYI 98-up F-bodies, IIRC, come with Torsen differentials.
Quite a few ppl have broken TrueTracs 2-3 times in a row using drag radials (nittos) and 7000 RPM clutch dumps on sub 400 hp Mustang Cobras and GTs.
If you're drag racing with 400+ rwtq then consider yourself lucky that the Torsen hasn't snapped.
If you're drag racing with 400+ rwtq then consider yourself lucky that the Torsen hasn't snapped.
Depends on the torsen used. T2R's will readily lock up and send power to both wheels in autocross because they're higb bias. T2's and regular torsens are different.
T-2Rs also use clutches which provides better lockup performance.
So again, the Torsen differential DOES NOT provide FULL Lockup.
You should rephrase your statement.
The T-2R is different from the rest of the Torsen differentials.
A clutch based LSD will provide close to full lockup. The T-2R is clutch and gear based.
The T-1, T-2, and TrueTracs are based on the same Torsen principle and will not provide full lockup.
If you want to do high torque drag racing, get a locker or a clutch LSD. I'm not too familiar with the T-2R to give an opinion on it.
So again, the Torsen differential DOES NOT provide FULL Lockup.
You should rephrase your statement.
The T-2R is different from the rest of the Torsen differentials.
A clutch based LSD will provide close to full lockup. The T-2R is clutch and gear based.
The T-1, T-2, and TrueTracs are based on the same Torsen principle and will not provide full lockup.
If you want to do high torque drag racing, get a locker or a clutch LSD. I'm not too familiar with the T-2R to give an opinion on it.
I know the Torsen T2R is different I was merely stating that what you said wasn't true about all the products made by Torsen. Not all T2R's have clutches. Nor did I recommend any torsen for drag racing-however they work great for autocross and road courses.
http://www.torsen.com/products/T-2R.htm
http://www.torsen.com/products/T-2R.htm
Torsen is a type of differential. Zexel makes the current Torsen differentials (with the registered trademark and all) but the Detroit TrueTrac is also a Torsen. So Torsen doesn't really make any differentials themself.
The T-2R uses preload springs for low torque full lockup. It can be built w/ or w/o clutches to adjust the torque biasing.
Looks like a good design. However, every other Torsen differential (with the exception of the T-2R) will not have FULL lockup.
[ February 13, 2003, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]
The T-2R uses preload springs for low torque full lockup. It can be built w/ or w/o clutches to adjust the torque biasing.
Looks like a good design. However, every other Torsen differential (with the exception of the T-2R) will not have FULL lockup.
[ February 13, 2003, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: metroplex ]
I see now!
Thanks for explaining it metroplex.
Close, it was in 99 when they switched over
Jason
Soma07: ah! thanks for clearing it up!
I don't know much about the F-bodies except that I like the pre-98 body style Camaro and the newer Firebird bodies.
How are the Torsen differentials holding up in the F-bodies that are driven hard?
I don't know much about the F-bodies except that I like the pre-98 body style Camaro and the newer Firebird bodies.
How are the Torsen differentials holding up in the F-bodies that are driven hard?
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