I've been on a fair number of flights where cross winds caused a go around. There was no touchdown though.
747 Hard Landing and Go Around
- Thread starter 97K15004WD
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Never had a hard landing but hammering onto the runway , followed by the sensation it’s going up plus seeing this happen, is how you would know.
Pitch attitude changes of that magnitude are easy to see out the windshield.
I've been traveling for a living since 1998, so I don't consider it an insane amount, but I barely notice them anymore. I've had 2 already this year. Two years ago I had 5 in one week, but 3 were from the same flight going into RNO during high cross winds. 2 go-arounds, diversion, then another on the trip back in. I get quite a few at my home airport at COS when on CRJ's.
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It’s a very high number unless those particular airports are unique.
I USED to do a ( 1995 ) minimum of 1 go around a month when I used to fly Dash 8 to a specific airport with high approach minimums ( ceiling ) and known for low ceilings.
Because this airport was very close to downtown skyscrapers, the “ precision approach” was a curved “ILS” but called MLS ( microwave landing system ) with elevation replacing the glide slope term and azimuth for localizer. Very steep approach ( 5 degrees IIRC ).
Other than this airport, it’s very rare to be doing go arounds until lately due to SALGA ( stable approaches and landings ).
I have flown over 16,000 on the Airbus and have only done 10 over the last 25 years.
I can’t recall the last time hearing any airline going around in Montreal. Third busiest airport Canada.
As a former 747 instructor and Pilot, let me offer one other consideration.
Cockpit height.
In the 747–400, the pilot was sitting 68 feet above the ground at the moment that the rear (body) main gear touchdown in a normal landing attitude.
I have flown entire missions where my cockpit height was lower than that. So, one of the big challenges when transitioning to the 747 is getting a Pilot used to the sight picture for the flare. You begin your flare in the 747 when the main gear, and the radar altimeter, are 50 feet above the runway surface.
That’s where you are when you cross the threshold on a normal glideslope. The main gear are at 50 feet.
At that moment, you, the pilot, are 118 feet in the air. If you were used to flying Cessnas, or smaller jets, you still have another 20 seconds of flying before you start to land. But in the 747 it’s time to start the flare.
On my airplane, maximum landing weight was 630,000 pounds. This one has a slightly higher maximum landing weight.
If you do not initiate the flare early enough. You are not going to get 300 + tons of momentum to change direction quickly enough to salvage the landing.
It appears that’s what happened here. No flare was initiated. The main wheels hit the runway while the pilot was still at a height where he would not yet begin his flare if he had been flying something like an A 320 or a 737.
I have seen pilots freeze up, when they get to the point where they should flare and they revert to old habits. They revert to site that looks comfortable to them.
But unless you’ve flown a 747, your old habits, your old sight picture, are wildly inappropriate.
It takes some getting used to. It looks very different out the front than any other airliner I’ve ever flown.
I wonder if perhaps that was a factor in this bounce
Cockpit height.
In the 747–400, the pilot was sitting 68 feet above the ground at the moment that the rear (body) main gear touchdown in a normal landing attitude.
I have flown entire missions where my cockpit height was lower than that. So, one of the big challenges when transitioning to the 747 is getting a Pilot used to the sight picture for the flare. You begin your flare in the 747 when the main gear, and the radar altimeter, are 50 feet above the runway surface.
That’s where you are when you cross the threshold on a normal glideslope. The main gear are at 50 feet.
At that moment, you, the pilot, are 118 feet in the air. If you were used to flying Cessnas, or smaller jets, you still have another 20 seconds of flying before you start to land. But in the 747 it’s time to start the flare.
On my airplane, maximum landing weight was 630,000 pounds. This one has a slightly higher maximum landing weight.
If you do not initiate the flare early enough. You are not going to get 300 + tons of momentum to change direction quickly enough to salvage the landing.
It appears that’s what happened here. No flare was initiated. The main wheels hit the runway while the pilot was still at a height where he would not yet begin his flare if he had been flying something like an A 320 or a 737.
I have seen pilots freeze up, when they get to the point where they should flare and they revert to old habits. They revert to site that looks comfortable to them.
But unless you’ve flown a 747, your old habits, your old sight picture, are wildly inappropriate.
It takes some getting used to. It looks very different out the front than any other airliner I’ve ever flown.
I wonder if perhaps that was a factor in this bounce
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I have been a check airman for several years conducting this kind of training.
Students can surprise you.
An experienced Air Force pilot, used to flying large aircraft, who had just flown a couple legs with aplomb, once did exactly the same thing to me in Newark.
Hammered it on with no flare.
I reacted verbally (loudly, clearly, telling him to “flare!”) instead of physically at 30 feet.
The airplane was undamaged, but I will never make that mistake again.
Or, he could have been like my student, that day, several years ago:
Highly qualified former USAF driver with several thousand hours in large aircraft, including the C-17. 20 year flying career and retirement. Not a kid. A guy in his 40s.
Who had a bad day while learning a new airplane.
No one was hurt. The airplane itself was undamaged. But I bet some folks were talking about that landing as they deplaned. They probably went further and assumed it was a Navy pilot - when the fact was that it was a USAF pilot. But it doesn't matter which service - anyone can struggle when learning a new airplane.
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Don’t be too hard on yourself.
Pilots flaring late is an occupational hazard, right/left seat and it can happen even when pilots are experienced.
Juan Browne talked about his rubber jungle landing in the B777 not long ago.
Edit: Just checked….masks didn’t drop but he said it was an official hard landing.
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My airline doesn’t allow new hire pilots to go wide body FO unless they have previous WB experience.
We don’t hire pilots with a few hundred hours.
They need a few thousand, minimum.
Air force pilot, Naval aviator. Astro there is a difference
Astro,
What happens on a 747 sized aircraft if the pilot flares too high? Can you just hold it off, then gradually pull the power off slowly and allow it to settle on its own? Or will you eat up too much runway?
What happens on a 747 sized aircraft if the pilot flares too high? Can you just hold it off, then gradually pull the power off slowly and allow it to settle on its own? Or will you eat up too much runway?
4WD
$50 site donor 2025
I catch an 800i once in a while - but never throught I’d ride in a 400 again - just did …
Ha ! I have several hours of cockpit time in a 747 both seats ,,,drinking coffee and bee essing with my friend at one of the air freight companies. It is unbelieveable when you stand up and look over the dash board and see how high off the ground you are and then look and see how big the plane really is. Huge would say it is huge.
Nose gear hard impacts can cause porpoising or a see-saw down the runway and cause nose Gear damage. Pulling back and letting the aircraft settle onto the main gear and slowly scrub off speed. Kelsey on YouTube has a channel 74 gear that explains alot of different aspects of flying 747's.Pardon my ignorance here as I know nothing about flying but I like watching planes - just trying to understand this scenario and I don't often have access to someone with your training. So you descend and at some point pull back the throttles and pull back on the yolk to "flare" and let the plane gently drop as you lose speed? If the first initial contact is hard, you're saying you do not push forward on the yoke or it just leads to another hard impact?
Please explain this to me like I'm in elementary school. I have lots of interest and no knowledge!
AZjeff
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Was getting this on video luck or are there people filming take offs/ landings at lots of airports? It wasn’t a random guy with a cellphone.
Oh yes, there are TONS of YouTube livestreams going at any given point. There are also “plane spotters” who will go hang out as close as they legally can to the end of the runway and record/take pictures.
