Is it as simple as saying 5W30 has more VI than does 5W20 or is it a case that 5W20 often has just as many VI but different make up versus the 5W30 to achieve the 5W20 rating ? Also does this change or not when you move to a synthetic oil ?
5W20 Versus 5W30 Viscosity Improvers ?
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In the US, it generally is the case that the main difference between a 5W20 and a 5W30 is the amount of VII polymer they contain. They will usually contain the same amount of DI additive. All things being equal, the 5W20 should contain slightly more heavy base oil and have a slightly lower Noack but often this gets lost in the sloppy blending tolerances that to me, are a characteristic of US engine oils.
Hi Joe, can you explain what those sloppy blending tolerances mean and the negative effects they can have in everyday use?
Is there anything else wrong with the oil we get? And is there any way to get better quality oil eg would the country of origin help or do they make special subpar versions for us anyway making COO irrelevant?
Is there anything else wrong with the oil we get? And is there any way to get better quality oil eg would the country of origin help or do they make special subpar versions for us anyway making COO irrelevant?
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Hi Joe, can you explain what those sloppy blending tolerances mean and the negative effects they can have in everyday use?
Is there anything else wrong with the oil we get? And is there any way to get better quality oil eg would the country of origin help or do they make special subpar versions for us anyway making COO irrelevant?
Oil has to meet a lot of specifications, the most basic of which is SAE J-300 which defines the oils viscometrics. If, for example, you pick a 5W30 (the most common oil PCMO grade in the US) it should have a KV100 of between 9.3 and 12.5 cst and a CCS-30 of less than 6600 cP. Now whilst this gives you a lot of freedom in the way you blend the oil, logic would dictate that you blend an oil that has a KV100 of 9.31 cst and a CCS-30 of 6599 cP. Why? Because this oil would contain the least amount of VII polymer and the lowest Noack. Not only are both these factors good things in their own right but both impact directly on the cost of the oil, so you have in built economic incentive to blend the oil this way.
There are all sorts of reasons why such tight blending isn't feasible. As well as KV100, the oil has to meet a minimum HTHS spec of 2.9 cP. Just for the sake of argument, let's say, to get a 2.9 cP HTHS you have to make an oil with a KV100 of 9.5 cst. In industry parlance, HTHS becomes the limiting spec and KV100 'floats'.
Also commercial blend plants aren't sophisticated places like laboratories; they just blend to a pre-defined 'recipe'. They need some 'slack' to account for variations in base oil & additive quality. So maybe they make an oil which has a KV100 of 9.7 cst and a CCS-30 of 6400 cP, which, although this causes the oil to include more VII, have a higher Noack and be more expensive to make, is fully justified.
And then there are engine test reasons why you might need adjust the blend further. For example you might need a higher HTHS to pass a wear test or a lower CCS-30 to pass a fuel economy test. This is all perfectly reasonably.
However it's when things go way beyond this for no good reason (something I see a lot on PQAI) that I think people should sit up and take note. Having an oil with a much higher KV100 and a much lower CCS-30 than technically necessary, makes for an oil that is not only more expensive than it needs to be but is also a WORSE oil because of it's high (IMO opinion, often ridiculously high!) Noack and high VII loading.
Strangely enough, for what is supposed to be the world's most dynamic economy, my experience of dealing with the US is when it comes to engine oil, it is incredibly resistant to change. To me, it seemed like it was still stuck in the 1970's and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the next century!
BTW, this isn't rabid anti-American criticism. Just a distillation of what I saw and experienced over many years..
Hi Joe, can you explain what those sloppy blending tolerances mean and the negative effects they can have in everyday use?
Is there anything else wrong with the oil we get? And is there any way to get better quality oil eg would the country of origin help or do they make special subpar versions for us anyway making COO irrelevant?
Oil has to meet a lot of specifications, the most basic of which is SAE J-300 which defines the oils viscometrics. If, for example, you pick a 5W30 (the most common oil PCMO grade in the US) it should have a KV100 of between 9.3 and 12.5 cst and a CCS-30 of less than 6600 cP. Now whilst this gives you a lot of freedom in the way you blend the oil, logic would dictate that you blend an oil that has a KV100 of 9.31 cst and a CCS-30 of 6599 cP. Why? Because this oil would contain the least amount of VII polymer and the lowest Noack. Not only are both these factors good things in their own right but both impact directly on the cost of the oil, so you have in built economic incentive to blend the oil this way.
There are all sorts of reasons why such tight blending isn't feasible. As well as KV100, the oil has to meet a minimum HTHS spec of 2.9 cP. Just for the sake of argument, let's say, to get a 2.9 cP HTHS you have to make an oil with a KV100 of 9.5 cst. In industry parlance, HTHS becomes the limiting spec and KV100 'floats'.
Also commercial blend plants aren't sophisticated places like laboratories; they just blend to a pre-defined 'recipe'. They need some 'slack' to account for variations in base oil & additive quality. So maybe they make an oil which has a KV100 of 9.7 cst and a CCS-30 of 6400 cP, which, although this causes the oil to include more VII, have a higher Noack and be more expensive to make, is fully justified.
And then there are engine test reasons why you might need adjust the blend further. For example you might need a higher HTHS to pass a wear test or a lower CCS-30 to pass a fuel economy test. This is all perfectly reasonably.
However it's when things go way beyond this for no good reason (something I see a lot on PQAI) that I think people should sit up and take note. Having an oil with a much higher KV100 and a much lower CCS-30 than technically necessary, makes for an oil that is not only more expensive than it needs to be but is also a WORSE oil because of it's high (IMO opinion, often ridiculously high!) Noack and high VII loading.
Strangely enough, for what is supposed to be the world's most dynamic economy, my experience of dealing with the US is when it comes to engine oil, it is incredibly resistant to change. To me, it seemed like it was still stuck in the 1970's and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the next century!
BTW, this isn't rabid anti-American criticism. Just a distillation of what I saw and experienced over many years..
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For what good reason do people on this forum embrace 0W & 5W engine oils where they are not required, because in doing so they are creating a market for inferior products?
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Interesting when looking at a post by Shannow some time back showing it was the US made oils that most consistanly were in spec versus those from EU and other parts of the world where they weren't.
I'm obviously not able to interpret everything that matters about an oil from pqia tests, but the synthetic 5w30's all seem to have Noacks of 11 or lower.
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
For what good reason do people on this forum embrace 0W & 5W engine oils where they are not required, because in doing so they are creating a market for inferior products?
In fairness, there are places in the US (Dakota?) where it gets so life-threateningly cold in winter that 5W- (not sure about 0W-?) oils are justified. However it's the OEM's relentless pursuit of fuel economy and CO2 reductions that's driving the shape of engine oil today with the better cold-startability coming as something of a freebie.
With so much effort being throw at 0W16 oils for GF-6 (is it A or B?) I really do question if things aren't now being pushed too far.
If I look at the world of politics, in Europe the so-called 'elites' have been pushing their ideas and agenda (ever closer union, geographical expansion, free moment of people/immigration, centralised decision making) way faster than a significant proportion of the population in several countries feels comfortable with. The first (and probably not last) result is rebellion & Brexit. You could say the same of the US with the Washington led push for rapid globalisation, unrestricted fair trade and again, immigration. People rebel and it's hello President Trump.
I do wonder if at some stage, the average driver might get fed up with the way oils are becoming ever more expensive, do things that aren't of primary significance (fuel economy) and over time, have serious side-effects which could potentially damage your car. Will BITOG members rebel and demand a return to more 'sensible' oils? We shall see...
For what good reason do people on this forum embrace 0W & 5W engine oils where they are not required, because in doing so they are creating a market for inferior products?
In fairness, there are places in the US (Dakota?) where it gets so life-threateningly cold in winter that 5W- (not sure about 0W-?) oils are justified. However it's the OEM's relentless pursuit of fuel economy and CO2 reductions that's driving the shape of engine oil today with the better cold-startability coming as something of a freebie.
With so much effort being throw at 0W16 oils for GF-6 (is it A or B?) I really do question if things aren't now being pushed too far.
If I look at the world of politics, in Europe the so-called 'elites' have been pushing their ideas and agenda (ever closer union, geographical expansion, free moment of people/immigration, centralised decision making) way faster than a significant proportion of the population in several countries feels comfortable with. The first (and probably not last) result is rebellion & Brexit. You could say the same of the US with the Washington led push for rapid globalisation, unrestricted fair trade and again, immigration. People rebel and it's hello President Trump.
I do wonder if at some stage, the average driver might get fed up with the way oils are becoming ever more expensive, do things that aren't of primary significance (fuel economy) and over time, have serious side-effects which could potentially damage your car. Will BITOG members rebel and demand a return to more 'sensible' oils? We shall see...
Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Interesting when looking at a post by Shannow some time back showing it was the US made oils that most consistanly were in spec versus those from EU and other parts of the world where they weren't.
I haven't seen that post but I can well believe it. However what I'm suggesting is that there comes a point where oils are so 'in spec', it's a bad thing, not a good thing. Speaking personally and hypothetically, if I had to choose between a oil that was extremely 'in spec' and one that was marginally 'off-spec' I'd opt for the latter because logically it would be the better, and cheaper, oil.
Interesting when looking at a post by Shannow some time back showing it was the US made oils that most consistanly were in spec versus those from EU and other parts of the world where they weren't.
I haven't seen that post but I can well believe it. However what I'm suggesting is that there comes a point where oils are so 'in spec', it's a bad thing, not a good thing. Speaking personally and hypothetically, if I had to choose between a oil that was extremely 'in spec' and one that was marginally 'off-spec' I'd opt for the latter because logically it would be the better, and cheaper, oil.
Liberals created Trump, Brexit and 0W40?
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Speaking personally and hypothetically, if I had to choose between a oil that was extremely 'in spec' and one that was marginally 'off-spec' I'd opt for the latter because logically it would be the better, and cheaper, oil.
Valvoline for you then!
Speaking personally and hypothetically, if I had to choose between a oil that was extremely 'in spec' and one that was marginally 'off-spec' I'd opt for the latter because logically it would be the better, and cheaper, oil.
Valvoline for you then!
OP here : I mainly asked to prove to myself that a 10W30 synthetic is a great choice for me here in North Georgia where our lowest winter temps can occasionally get down to 12 to 14 degrees F. Most often winter temp lows are in the 26 to 32 degrees F. range here .
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
userfriendly said:
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Not 'til we actually see the junkyards filled with prematurely grenaded Honda and Ford engines that have been running that awful 5W-20 since the late 1990's...
Don't you know that the #1 complaint with vehicles over the last 20 years has been 5w20 written on the oil cap?
#2 is that Motorcraft 5w20 has a 15% NOACK.
Not 'til we actually see the junkyards filled with prematurely grenaded Honda and Ford engines that have been running that awful 5W-20 since the late 1990's...
Don't you know that the #1 complaint with vehicles over the last 20 years has been 5w20 written on the oil cap?
#2 is that Motorcraft 5w20 has a 15% NOACK.
Oh, I don't know. CROWNVIC4LIFE uses MC synthetic in his two FORDS
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I do wonder if at some stage, the average driver might get fed up with the way oils are ............do things that aren't of primary significance (fuel economy) and over time, have serious side-effects which could potentially damage your car.
+1
Tribute to guys replacing SAE90 ,80W90 with 75W90, one could imagine indie shops across the ocean have gained wide exposures in differential strip-down/mods , enabling many to achieve 'differential specialist' status .......
a skill set totally lacking in my community here.
Thank you so much for saving the planet, Mr Efficiency !
I do wonder if at some stage, the average driver might get fed up with the way oils are ............do things that aren't of primary significance (fuel economy) and over time, have serious side-effects which could potentially damage your car.
+1
Tribute to guys replacing SAE90 ,80W90 with 75W90, one could imagine indie shops across the ocean have gained wide exposures in differential strip-down/mods , enabling many to achieve 'differential specialist' status .......
a skill set totally lacking in my community here.
Thank you so much for saving the planet, Mr Efficiency !
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Not 'til we actually see the junkyards filled with prematurely grenaded Honda and Ford engines that have been running that awful 5W-20 since the late 1990's...
Don't you know that the #1 complaint with vehicles over the last 20 years has been 5w20 written on the oil cap?
#2 is that Motorcraft 5w20 has a 15% NOACK.
Um, what?
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Not 'til we actually see the junkyards filled with prematurely grenaded Honda and Ford engines that have been running that awful 5W-20 since the late 1990's...
Don't you know that the #1 complaint with vehicles over the last 20 years has been 5w20 written on the oil cap?
#2 is that Motorcraft 5w20 has a 15% NOACK.
Um, what?
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
OP here : I mainly asked to prove to myself that a 10W30 synthetic is a great choice for me here in North Georgia where our lowest winter temps can occasionally get down to 12 to 14 degrees F. Most often winter temp lows are in the 26 to 32 degrees F. range here .
I posted this in another thread for you:
Sinclair 0W-20 full synthetic is
HTHS = 2.65 cP
Noack = 13.9 %
Sinclair 5w30 full synthetic is
HTHS = 3.17 cP
Noack = 11.1 %
Sinclair 10w30 full synthetic is
HTHS = 3.13 cP
Noack = 6.2 %
Sinclair 5W-20 full synthetic (Dexos)
HTHS = 2.75 cP
Noack = 10.9 %
Sinclair 5w30 full synthetic (Dexos)
HTHS = 3.2 cP
Noack = 10.5 %
All other things being equal, I like higher HTHS and lower Noack. This points to 10W30 as a nice balance point.
A 10W30 should be good down to 0F or -20 C.
In fact the most recent J300 test 10W cold cranking at -25C and low temp pumping at -30C. The 5W is 5 deg C less for both, and the 0W is another 5 deg C lower again.
OP here : I mainly asked to prove to myself that a 10W30 synthetic is a great choice for me here in North Georgia where our lowest winter temps can occasionally get down to 12 to 14 degrees F. Most often winter temp lows are in the 26 to 32 degrees F. range here .
I posted this in another thread for you:
Sinclair 0W-20 full synthetic is
HTHS = 2.65 cP
Noack = 13.9 %
Sinclair 5w30 full synthetic is
HTHS = 3.17 cP
Noack = 11.1 %
Sinclair 10w30 full synthetic is
HTHS = 3.13 cP
Noack = 6.2 %
Sinclair 5W-20 full synthetic (Dexos)
HTHS = 2.75 cP
Noack = 10.9 %
Sinclair 5w30 full synthetic (Dexos)
HTHS = 3.2 cP
Noack = 10.5 %
All other things being equal, I like higher HTHS and lower Noack. This points to 10W30 as a nice balance point.
A 10W30 should be good down to 0F or -20 C.
In fact the most recent J300 test 10W cold cranking at -25C and low temp pumping at -30C. The 5W is 5 deg C less for both, and the 0W is another 5 deg C lower again.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
In the US, it generally is the case that the main difference between a 5W20 and a 5W30 is the amount of VII polymer they contain. They will usually contain the same amount of DI additive. All things being equal, the 5W20 should contain slightly more heavy base oil and have a slightly lower Noack but often this gets lost in the sloppy blending tolerances that to me, are a characteristic of US engine oils.
Hey wait a minute, what are you trying to say here ?
In the US, it generally is the case that the main difference between a 5W20 and a 5W30 is the amount of VII polymer they contain. They will usually contain the same amount of DI additive. All things being equal, the 5W20 should contain slightly more heavy base oil and have a slightly lower Noack but often this gets lost in the sloppy blending tolerances that to me, are a characteristic of US engine oils.
Hey wait a minute, what are you trying to say here ?
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