5W-20 Question?
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You are probably correct there.Imagine us looking at MSDS's in the future and saying " they use too mamy PPM's of base oil in their formulation" I don't like the lubricant.
BTW, I wonder if the makers will ever run dry sump motors in production line cars? Something to think about and all the possibilties that could come from it
BTW, I wonder if the makers will ever run dry sump motors in production line cars? Something to think about and all the possibilties that could come from it
I notice that Mobil's thickest jet engine oil is 5.4 cSt @ 100*C. I can't think of tougher duty for an oil and there were no CAFE considerations in coming up with that weight.
Jay,
That thin 5-Cp aviation jet oil you refer to is being sprayed directly into big roller bearings on the turbine engines.
The need to seperate soft rod bearings from crank journals does not exist up there at 40,000 feet.
That thin 5-Cp aviation jet oil you refer to is being sprayed directly into big roller bearings on the turbine engines.
The need to seperate soft rod bearings from crank journals does not exist up there at 40,000 feet.
so you'd recommend using 5W-20 in any engine that would otherwise use 5W-30 or 10w-30?
Ford knew 5W-20 thinned out too much which is why they went to a synth blend.
If you think i was kidding find a 5W-20 for under $1/qt that's of decent quality.
pennzoil 5W-20 is about $1.70/qt while 5W-30/10W-30/10W-40 is $1.20 a qt over here. Why is there such a big price gap?
The reason is that newer 5W-20 formulations are of a synth blend. this is the only way it can keep the 5W-20 working right. A dino 5W-20 will be **** thin over time.
You saw how M1 TS 5W-30 thinned to 5W-20 in a HD application. Imagine dino 5W-20 in that same application. can we say 0W-0?
I place my trust in the folks who have intimate knowledge with the engine manufacturer's workings/dealings/operations. I don't give a sh*t if some folks on an internet UBB board think theoretically 5W-20 is a better oil.
The only way I'd use 5W-20 in my engine is if it was a Mobil 1 PAO 5W-20 that has been race proven.
Ask any of the stang folks - the majority of them still run 5W-30 in their 2001-up GTs.
Listen to Ford and this is what your nice car becomes:
Ford knew 5W-20 thinned out too much which is why they went to a synth blend.
If you think i was kidding find a 5W-20 for under $1/qt that's of decent quality.
pennzoil 5W-20 is about $1.70/qt while 5W-30/10W-30/10W-40 is $1.20 a qt over here. Why is there such a big price gap?
The reason is that newer 5W-20 formulations are of a synth blend. this is the only way it can keep the 5W-20 working right. A dino 5W-20 will be **** thin over time.
You saw how M1 TS 5W-30 thinned to 5W-20 in a HD application. Imagine dino 5W-20 in that same application. can we say 0W-0?
I place my trust in the folks who have intimate knowledge with the engine manufacturer's workings/dealings/operations. I don't give a sh*t if some folks on an internet UBB board think theoretically 5W-20 is a better oil.
The only way I'd use 5W-20 in my engine is if it was a Mobil 1 PAO 5W-20 that has been race proven.
Ask any of the stang folks - the majority of them still run 5W-30 in their 2001-up GTs.
Listen to Ford and this is what your nice car becomes:
Patman
Staff member
Not necessarily. I'm going to be running it in those two cars mentioned even though they call for 5w30, but just as an experiment, then I will be going back to 5w30 yet again. I'm just trying to prove a point that a lot of us on here have gotten all bent out of shape at the mere mention of 5w20 when all the facts haven't fully presented themselves yet. If and when we start seeing engine failures from Ford and Honda cars that specify 5w20, then we can truly say it doesn't work. Until then, it's all speculation.
By the way, there is no such thing as a pure dino oil 5w20 anyways, so this is a moot point. All the 5w20s out there are a blend. For instance, the Pennzoil 5w20 uses a base oil comprised of 70% group 3 and 30% group 2+. I expect others are pretty much the same.
[ November 20, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]
I did pat myself on the back for the idea of using the GF's car as a test mule
I mainly used 5W-20 just to see what kind of analysis it would show compared to 5W-30 that the car has used for a year or so. The cougar was probably the hardest oil change car i've done yet
The oil filter is positioned right above the exhaust manifold, can you say hot and burnt forearms!!! Also the drain plug is 1/2" away from the other manifold so getting in a ratchet is impossible. I will be pulling this oil and having it analyzed around 3K so until then.....Can't we all just get along!
5W-20
5/10W-30
5W-20
I think the whole point of using a 20-weight is to take advantage of the fact that oils have improved over the years. The additive packages are better and the films are stronger. The way I see it, I'm giving up the whole advantage of using a good quality synthetic oil if I use the same heavy viscosity that's required by a poor quality oil. If a high quality 20-weight will protect as well as a poor quality 30 or 40-weight then I get better cooling, better gas mileage, and lower wear start-ups and warm-ups with the thinner oil.
Why change an oil at 3,000 miles that will last 10,000? Why use a 40-weight where a 20-weight will do?
Why change an oil at 3,000 miles that will last 10,000? Why use a 40-weight where a 20-weight will do?
It appears that 5W20 will work fine on new cars with tight tolerances ... as long as you don't extend the interval too long.
As we have seen, many 5W30 SJ/SL "dino" oils will shear down to a 5W20 after just 3,000 miles. So, many people who bought a 5W30 are essentially using a 5W20 whether they intended to or not. This sort of goes along with what TooSlick said above. It won't shear down much ... but will oxidize and thicken with extended use. And of course, wear will go up considerably at this point.
By the time 5,000 miles rolls around, these oils have pretty much had it. Sorry, but I can't say that double-digit wear metals are good results.
So, if you have a car that calls for these oils, I'd use them ... but keep the interval short ... even if the stuff says "semi-synthetic" and has moly. I would start at 4,000 and test every additional 500 miles until I got a result I didn't like.
Oh, and someone told me that Red Line does make a 5W20 ... but you have to ask for it. I have no idea what the minimum quantity might be, though.
They make some ultra-thin race oils for qualifying, though. Stuff like 0W2.
--- Bror Jace
As we have seen, many 5W30 SJ/SL "dino" oils will shear down to a 5W20 after just 3,000 miles. So, many people who bought a 5W30 are essentially using a 5W20 whether they intended to or not. This sort of goes along with what TooSlick said above. It won't shear down much ... but will oxidize and thicken with extended use. And of course, wear will go up considerably at this point.
By the time 5,000 miles rolls around, these oils have pretty much had it. Sorry, but I can't say that double-digit wear metals are good results.
So, if you have a car that calls for these oils, I'd use them ... but keep the interval short ... even if the stuff says "semi-synthetic" and has moly. I would start at 4,000 and test every additional 500 miles until I got a result I didn't like.
Oh, and someone told me that Red Line does make a 5W20 ... but you have to ask for it. I have no idea what the minimum quantity might be, though.
They make some ultra-thin race oils for qualifying, though. Stuff like 0W2.
--- Bror Jace
Patman
Staff member
I don't know what causes more controversy on here, 5w20 oils, or Amsoil vs Mobil 1!!
See what you started Ryan?
I have the same 2.5 Duratec motor in my Contour as your Cougar has. Nice 7000 RPM motor.
I do not believe you will see any difference in MPG by changing your oil to a different grade, higher or lower. Weather and variation in driving habits seem to cause a far, far larger difference on fill-up to fill-up MPG. I have been using Mobil-1 0-40 for a while in my 3 cars and I think I will stick with this for the beneift of long engine life. If you check the international web sites of Castrol, Mobil etc you will find that outside of the US & away from the EPA/CAFE influence, oils along the lines of 10-40 or 15-40 are recommended for our engines in the Ford Mondeo. There are several sites that have interactive viscosity selectors that make this suggestion. Mobil even goes so far as to put a footnote to say that Ford US recommends 5-30 and then they (Mobil) suggest you use a heavier oil.
If you are interested in getting that last 0.2 MPG improvement, Mobil just completed a revamp of their web site this week and now synthetic Mobil1 0-40 is listed as being energy conserving along with the thinner weight oils.
However, if the Cougar is on the ever popular 24 month lease, then as previously suggested, Evian might do just as well.
I have the same 2.5 Duratec motor in my Contour as your Cougar has. Nice 7000 RPM motor.
I do not believe you will see any difference in MPG by changing your oil to a different grade, higher or lower. Weather and variation in driving habits seem to cause a far, far larger difference on fill-up to fill-up MPG. I have been using Mobil-1 0-40 for a while in my 3 cars and I think I will stick with this for the beneift of long engine life. If you check the international web sites of Castrol, Mobil etc you will find that outside of the US & away from the EPA/CAFE influence, oils along the lines of 10-40 or 15-40 are recommended for our engines in the Ford Mondeo. There are several sites that have interactive viscosity selectors that make this suggestion. Mobil even goes so far as to put a footnote to say that Ford US recommends 5-30 and then they (Mobil) suggest you use a heavier oil.
If you are interested in getting that last 0.2 MPG improvement, Mobil just completed a revamp of their web site this week and now synthetic Mobil1 0-40 is listed as being energy conserving along with the thinner weight oils.
However, if the Cougar is on the ever popular 24 month lease, then as previously suggested, Evian might do just as well.
sattefi,
The Amsoil 5w-20 comes in @ 2.9 Cp, which by no accident meets the min spec for xw-30 grades ....
I have seen data on some of the factory fill, 0w-20/5w-20 oils from Japan come in as low as 2.6 Cp @ 150C. These are usually the ones with 200-300 ppm of moly added.
The Amsoil 5w-20 comes in @ 2.9 Cp, which by no accident meets the min spec for xw-30 grades ....
I have seen data on some of the factory fill, 0w-20/5w-20 oils from Japan come in as low as 2.6 Cp @ 150C. These are usually the ones with 200-300 ppm of moly added.
Patman
Staff member
Castrol GTX's 5w20 has an HTHS of 2.8
I'd really like to know what Royal Purple's HTHS for their 5w20 is though, if anyone knows it that would be great.
I'd really like to know what Royal Purple's HTHS for their 5w20 is though, if anyone knows it that would be great.
Good points, I wonder the same thing. I believe it is correct.
I think Mobil-1 first came out in only 5w20. Presumably because of points you mentioned, stronger film, etc. A syn 5w20 would essentially be a SAE20 (no shear). Which many older cars did use. I wonder why they stopped making it...
I'd bet 5w20 of today has better protection than a 10w30 of 15years ago (maybe even more recently too)
Because of this (fact?) I think I will be running 10w30 in my car next. 10w30 is only recommended to about 50F ambient or so in my car but SAE30 is good to 90F. These recommendations are over 15years old and I believe a high quality synthetic or blend(Schaeffer's) 10w30 to be closer to SAE30 with current technology. Actually I believe it may offer even better protection due to improvements in additives as well.
I guess I'll find out when I get it analyzed if my theory is correct. If not,
>>>I think Mobil-1 first came out in only 5w20. Presumably because of points you mentioned, stronger film, etc. A syn 5w20 would essentially be a SAE20 (no shear). Which many older cars did use. I wonder why they stopped making it...
I think they stopped making it because of customer resistance to the low viscosity. Remember that in those days, most folks used 10W-40 (and some were still hanging on to a need for single-viscosity oils).
Also, the original formulation tended to shrink certain seals. When reformulated, it became a 5W-30. Later, again probably because of customer resistance, they added the 10W-30 and 15W-50.
And now, 0w-30 and 0W-40--
I think they stopped making it because of customer resistance to the low viscosity. Remember that in those days, most folks used 10W-40 (and some were still hanging on to a need for single-viscosity oils).
Also, the original formulation tended to shrink certain seals. When reformulated, it became a 5W-30. Later, again probably because of customer resistance, they added the 10W-30 and 15W-50.
And now, 0w-30 and 0W-40--
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