4L80E build
- Thread starter P10crew
- Start date
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There is definite deformation in the cs bushing
Nothing real obvious on the sun gear splines other than the sun gear is a little loose. Sun gear shaft feels excessively loose on the main shaft . Seems almost as if the center support was being thrust forward and back based on the deformation seen in the center support bushing. I found 5 complete planet assemblies on flea bay for $185 I hate buying this kind of stuff from eBay it is from a salvage yard though
Nothing real obvious on the sun gear splines other than the sun gear is a little loose. Sun gear shaft feels excessively loose on the main shaft . Seems almost as if the center support was being thrust forward and back based on the deformation seen in the center support bushing. I found 5 complete planet assemblies on flea bay for $185 I hate buying this kind of stuff from eBay it is from a salvage yard though
Cline the ATRA book talks about stoning the VB mating surface on the case to remove any burrs. What should I get or what do you use for this. I was thinking a super fine large knife honing block or a piece of glass wrapped with 400 grit. Your thoughts?
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Using .0015 feeler as a NO GO it passed.
Input shaft has just detectable clearance in the stator support but will re bush. None of the internal rear half components just fell out of their bores but have to at this point ask about the sonnax oringed end plugs. Would it be safe to get all of the oringed end plugs that won't be in the sonnax / CK kits that you specified earlier. Also what parts other than seals and bushings do you always replace that are not in the kits? Teflon coated gears are on the list
Also please read your messages.
? Number 312... looking at the previous pics why is it that they bury the bushings in their bores? Both ends? They gave up .250" of support and why are the bushings not long enough to fill up the cut bore? Seems to me like it's this way all over the trans.
Should it be a practice to leave the bushings spaced as far apart as we can but yet deep enough to not interfere with shaft radius'd Shoulders?
Another? Do you glue in any other bushing other than the sonnax output?
Should it be a practice to leave the bushings spaced as far apart as we can but yet deep enough to not interfere with shaft radius'd Shoulders?
Another? Do you glue in any other bushing other than the sonnax output?
The CS Bushing looks to have some wear? Can you catch a nail on any of the Radial witness marks left by the Sun Gear Shaft?
Like you said.....The Sun Gear to Sun Gear Shaft splines look good & proud. It's difficult to cull based on the tooth contact pattern because the End-play of these components was obviously why off!!
I guess this will all depend if you want to save the chewed up carrier with the Bearing-Mod? Though I guess you could "Face" it on a lathe & use the Sonnax shims to bring the Reaction Carrier End-Play back in to spec using a Thrust.
Don't be concerned about the Stator Support Bushing depth to much, The 80E doesn't suffer NEAR the issues the 60E does with their little chicken "S" bushings trying to support half the component's in the trans which lie in the Input Drum.
I set them right past the chamfer in the support, In theory it will give better support but like I said......It's not critical & if there was an issue I doubt it would help that much.
On a 60E Clevite makes a extra wide front bushing & Sonnax make a PTFE coated rear bushing.
I go over the ID of the bushings with some Red Scotch-Brite just so I can see if any high spots formed during install.....
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/ZBhkBQE.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/EGWCXiA.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Like you said.....The Sun Gear to Sun Gear Shaft splines look good & proud. It's difficult to cull based on the tooth contact pattern because the End-play of these components was obviously why off!!
I guess this will all depend if you want to save the chewed up carrier with the Bearing-Mod? Though I guess you could "Face" it on a lathe & use the Sonnax shims to bring the Reaction Carrier End-Play back in to spec using a Thrust.
Don't be concerned about the Stator Support Bushing depth to much, The 80E doesn't suffer NEAR the issues the 60E does with their little chicken "S" bushings trying to support half the component's in the trans which lie in the Input Drum.
I set them right past the chamfer in the support, In theory it will give better support but like I said......It's not critical & if there was an issue I doubt it would help that much.
On a 60E Clevite makes a extra wide front bushing & Sonnax make a PTFE coated rear bushing.
I go over the ID of the bushings with some Red Scotch-Brite just so I can see if any high spots formed during install.....
Last edited:
Originally Posted by P10crew
Another? Do you glue in any other bushing other than the sonnax output?
No......The Ouput "was" notorious for walking out of the case. GM started staking the bushing in place for that reason. The Sonnax will need to be installed Upside Down/Backwards for Rollerization of the Output. Defeating the original purpose of the Lip. The Sonnax Bronze Bushing is too hard to stake it in place without breaking it.
*Prep the bushing & case lightly with some Red Scoth-Brite.
*Clean well with some brake-clean.
*Apply the retaining compound to the bushing, Though Red Loctite also works really well!
*Drive the bushing to bottom from the REAR of the case.
Another? Do you glue in any other bushing other than the sonnax output?
No......The Ouput "was" notorious for walking out of the case. GM started staking the bushing in place for that reason. The Sonnax will need to be installed Upside Down/Backwards for Rollerization of the Output. Defeating the original purpose of the Lip. The Sonnax Bronze Bushing is too hard to stake it in place without breaking it.
*Prep the bushing & case lightly with some Red Scoth-Brite.
*Clean well with some brake-clean.
*Apply the retaining compound to the bushing, Though Red Loctite also works really well!
*Drive the bushing to bottom from the REAR of the case.
Originally Posted by P10crew
. None of the internal rear half components just fell out of their bores but have to at this point ask about the sonnax oringed end plugs. Would it be safe to get all of the oringed end plugs that won't be in the sonnax / CK kits that you specified earlier. Also what parts other than seals and bushings do you always replace that are not in the kits? Teflon coated gears are on the list
Also please read your messages.
The O-ringed end-plugs are optional.....I see some heavy wear on the plugs with high mileage units, If they fit snug in the bores....Run them!
The PR valve end plug is the most common offender. After removing the Boost Valve & PR Valve.....I tap on the end plug with a pocket screwdriver, If it easily moves down further in the bore, I run the O-ringed Sonnax plug.
But to answer your question.....By all means.....Run a O-ringed End Plug in every location that has pressure behind it! Helpful chart
HERE
. None of the internal rear half components just fell out of their bores but have to at this point ask about the sonnax oringed end plugs. Would it be safe to get all of the oringed end plugs that won't be in the sonnax / CK kits that you specified earlier. Also what parts other than seals and bushings do you always replace that are not in the kits? Teflon coated gears are on the list
Also please read your messages.
The O-ringed end-plugs are optional.....I see some heavy wear on the plugs with high mileage units, If they fit snug in the bores....Run them!
The PR valve end plug is the most common offender. After removing the Boost Valve & PR Valve.....I tap on the end plug with a pocket screwdriver, If it easily moves down further in the bore, I run the O-ringed Sonnax plug.
But to answer your question.....By all means.....Run a O-ringed End Plug in every location that has pressure behind it! Helpful chart
HERE
Cline. All the parts are here now I'm noticing stuff that apparently must need to be ordered separately
What should I get for bands?
Is there a kit with ALL the plastic spacers?
What shim kit or kits do I need to order for setting
All of the end plays?
All of the hard parts from wit are like new and the complete rear planataries from flea bay are mint.
I'm sure I will have to make more orders for small stuff but do you see anything else that is not on the list that you posted or don't come in the kit . CK transgo and sonnax goodies are here.
What should I get for bands?
Is there a kit with ALL the plastic spacers?
What shim kit or kits do I need to order for setting
All of the end plays?
All of the hard parts from wit are like new and the complete rear planataries from flea bay are mint.
I'm sure I will have to make more orders for small stuff but do you see anything else that is not on the list that you posted or don't come in the kit . CK transgo and sonnax goodies are here.
How is the Intermediate Brake Band? I rarely replace the front band unless the unit was contaminated with Water/Coolant. Only come on it manual 2nd gear.
Use a new Borg Warner for the Low Reverse "rear" Band, You can get this from a local GM parts department or WIT.
GM pat# 24202229
Borg Warner part# B34510
Thrust Washer Kit with Selective shims for the Front Pump to set Front Unit End-Play.....WIT part# 34200E, Alternative(Amazon, E-Bay) part# K34907E.
*The CK Recal. kit comes with shims to set Rear Unit End-Play.
I suggest checking the Reaction Carrier to Center Support & Forward Hub to Direct Drum End-play before ordering shims for these locations........
*Stack the unit to the Center Support, While applying downward force on the CS with your palms (White arrows).....Use your fingers to lift up on the Reaction Carrier (Red Arrow). The bottom yellow mark is where you put the Dial Indicator Tip.
*Like I stated earlier, The CK washer is thicker........
*Stack the unit to the Forward Hub, While applying downward pressure on the FH with your palms (White arrows)....Use your fingers to lift up on the Direct Drum (Red Arrow). The top yellow mark is where you put the Dial Indicator Tip.
*The Sonnax Forward hub is machined Plus-.025".....So you may not need to shim here, You may have to cut the bearing saddle a tad??
*I have a 18" piece of Rail Track that I sit on it's end next to the stack, Makes a great Indicator Base for checking the Forward Hub to Direct Drum End-Play.
*I have a TH400 Bolt-on Yoke bolted to my Trans Bench, Makes a great stand for the assembly. You can use a Vise.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/xqZgZcH.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Use a new Borg Warner for the Low Reverse "rear" Band, You can get this from a local GM parts department or WIT.
GM pat# 24202229
Borg Warner part# B34510
Thrust Washer Kit with Selective shims for the Front Pump to set Front Unit End-Play.....WIT part# 34200E, Alternative(Amazon, E-Bay) part# K34907E.
*The CK Recal. kit comes with shims to set Rear Unit End-Play.
I suggest checking the Reaction Carrier to Center Support & Forward Hub to Direct Drum End-play before ordering shims for these locations........
*Stack the unit to the Center Support, While applying downward force on the CS with your palms (White arrows).....Use your fingers to lift up on the Reaction Carrier (Red Arrow). The bottom yellow mark is where you put the Dial Indicator Tip.
*Like I stated earlier, The CK washer is thicker........
*Stack the unit to the Forward Hub, While applying downward pressure on the FH with your palms (White arrows)....Use your fingers to lift up on the Direct Drum (Red Arrow). The top yellow mark is where you put the Dial Indicator Tip.
*The Sonnax Forward hub is machined Plus-.025".....So you may not need to shim here, You may have to cut the bearing saddle a tad??
*I have a 18" piece of Rail Track that I sit on it's end next to the stack, Makes a great Indicator Base for checking the Forward Hub to Direct Drum End-Play.
*I have a TH400 Bolt-on Yoke bolted to my Trans Bench, Makes a great stand for the assembly. You can use a Vise.
TH400/4L80E Bolt-On yokes should be a dime-a-dozen......I've thrown away/scrapped hundreds of them over the years. The thread size to bolt one to your table/bench is 5/16-24.
Insist on Borg Warner Sprags/Roller Clutches.....Wit is a good source, But as the theme continues, They try to push Chicom stuff for better margins!
There is no commercially available shim for a Rollerized Forward Hub, I've had to cut some on a lathe in the past out of Dana 70 Pinion Shims, Not a fun filled activity in my opinion. Which is why I like to machine the Forward Hub myself using the Ford AXOD bearing.
The +.025" on the Sonnax Hub WILL put you real close, I like to start at +.030" to +035".....But usually ends up at +.022" to +.028" on most units.
**Sonnax part# 34500-Z WILL reduce the End-play between the Forward Hub & Direct Drum by LOWERING the Main Shaft in the Stack-Up which will INCREASE Front Unit End-Play.
*The only feasible way to eliminate the increase in Front Unit End-play using this method without lowering the Main Shaft is to shave .010" off the bottom of the Center Support so the shim will raise the Direct Drum via the Sun-Gear Shaft & Sun Gear now sitting .010" higher.
Unless I'm trying to save a worn unit on the cheap & the Direct Drum is ACTUALLY sitting lower in the stack-up.....I Do Not care for this approach when building a "Blueprinted" unit as the customer isn't paying me to hack & band-aid the unit together.
*It this just a tad OCD....Probably
Per the Sonnax website....HERE
"By lifting the sun gear, the drums are also supported and front unit endplay is reduced"......This is 100% False, This LOWERS the Main Shaft & the Main Shaft is the grounding point (Via the Forward Hub) for Front Unit End-Play!
**You can gain the the .010" back PLUS .005" of Front Unit End-Play without shaving the Center Support by using a .015" thicker Thrust at the Front of the Forward Hub.....Sonnax part# 34298-078.
Sonnax part# 34006-05 fits under the the Thrust Washer between the Reaction Carrier & Output Carrier allowing you to fine tune the Reaction Carrier to Center Support End-Play.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/RRdoZMP.jpg "[Linked Image]")
Insist on Borg Warner Sprags/Roller Clutches.....Wit is a good source, But as the theme continues, They try to push Chicom stuff for better margins!
There is no commercially available shim for a Rollerized Forward Hub, I've had to cut some on a lathe in the past out of Dana 70 Pinion Shims, Not a fun filled activity in my opinion. Which is why I like to machine the Forward Hub myself using the Ford AXOD bearing.
The +.025" on the Sonnax Hub WILL put you real close, I like to start at +.030" to +035".....But usually ends up at +.022" to +.028" on most units.
**Sonnax part# 34500-Z WILL reduce the End-play between the Forward Hub & Direct Drum by LOWERING the Main Shaft in the Stack-Up which will INCREASE Front Unit End-Play.
*The only feasible way to eliminate the increase in Front Unit End-play using this method without lowering the Main Shaft is to shave .010" off the bottom of the Center Support so the shim will raise the Direct Drum via the Sun-Gear Shaft & Sun Gear now sitting .010" higher.
Unless I'm trying to save a worn unit on the cheap & the Direct Drum is ACTUALLY sitting lower in the stack-up.....I Do Not care for this approach when building a "Blueprinted" unit as the customer isn't paying me to hack & band-aid the unit together.
*It this just a tad OCD....Probably
Per the Sonnax website....HERE
"By lifting the sun gear, the drums are also supported and front unit endplay is reduced"......This is 100% False, This LOWERS the Main Shaft & the Main Shaft is the grounding point (Via the Forward Hub) for Front Unit End-Play!
**You can gain the the .010" back PLUS .005" of Front Unit End-Play without shaving the Center Support by using a .015" thicker Thrust at the Front of the Forward Hub.....Sonnax part# 34298-078.
Sonnax part# 34006-05 fits under the the Thrust Washer between the Reaction Carrier & Output Carrier allowing you to fine tune the Reaction Carrier to Center Support End-Play.
I don't believe anyone makes a 4L80E Center Support Bushing Driver, GM did have one for the TH400.....Good luck finding one!
I have one really terrible picture.....I'll do my best to describe it, You have a Center Support laying there, So this will not be very difficult!
The Digital Calipers I keep at the house decided to give-up
.....I can get some better measurements tomorrow as I keep my good Brown & Sharpe Dial Caliper at work.
The one I made years ago was Aluminum & got stolen with some other tools at my last job.....Jokes on them because it was pretty worn out.
The trick is not to machine the tool to fit the ID of a brand new bushing.....It will get stuck once you press the bushing in the Support!
The Lip of the tool needs to be able to pass through the support as you press the old bushing out without getting stuck!
A Cornwell 15/16" Socket fits the ID of the bushing just right, Has a little slop (.002" maybe), So I measured the OD of the socket with the Vernier read out on my digital calipers & came up with 1.40"
The Lip of the tool needs to be @1.55" in diameter, & the Under the Lip length needs to be 4.00"
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/h97JcsJ.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/qil7RsU.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/OsZ4mQ2.jpg "[Linked Image]")
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/E5m5L0y.jpg "[Linked Image]")
I have one really terrible picture.....I'll do my best to describe it, You have a Center Support laying there, So this will not be very difficult!
The Digital Calipers I keep at the house decided to give-up
The one I made years ago was Aluminum & got stolen with some other tools at my last job.....Jokes on them because it was pretty worn out.
The trick is not to machine the tool to fit the ID of a brand new bushing.....It will get stuck once you press the bushing in the Support!
The Lip of the tool needs to be able to pass through the support as you press the old bushing out without getting stuck!
A Cornwell 15/16" Socket fits the ID of the bushing just right, Has a little slop (.002" maybe), So I measured the OD of the socket with the Vernier read out on my digital calipers & came up with 1.40"
The Lip of the tool needs to be @1.55" in diameter, & the Under the Lip length needs to be 4.00"
Last edited:
Originally Posted by P10crew
Length above shoulder?
45 chamfer on top? Lol
The length above the shoulder doesn't really matter.....1/2" would be fine.
A small chamfer around the top just to clean it up will be fine
Length above shoulder?
45 chamfer on top? Lol
The length above the shoulder doesn't really matter.....1/2" would be fine.
A small chamfer around the top just to clean it up will be fine
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![[Linked Image]](https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2019/03/full-84637-31298-223c1258_8791_440b_8615_0d94598d5ba6.jpeg "[Linked Image]")
Cline in my bushing kit they included 2 front stator support bushings an extra wide one and the normal width. Use the wide?
Also I cleaned up all of pump parts. All of the internal compononents are in good shape and good fit in the bores dry. Are there any historically high wear parts that should be replaced in the pump other than what you have previously called out.
