450cc MC oil Analysis results

Joined
Oct 6, 2022
Messages
6
I received the results back from the second oil sample I have sent out on my motorcycle. The bike is a (Chinese) 2020 CSC RX4. Engine break in was conventional oil. I swapped to full synthetic after collecting the first sample. The second sample was in engine for 3,500 miles not 35000 (lab typo). Both samples show lower viscosity ratings than expected. 10w40 should be 14.5 cST new (according to the Valvoline SDS). The second sample shows elevated aluminum wear particles in suspension. Both oil screens were clean as well as the filter when I collected the sample. Sample was collected warm and mid stream as the last one. I'm unsure what baseline aluminum levels should be for a liquid cooled high reving thumper. I believe the cylinder walls are plated/coated. Maybe the aluminum is from clutch basket wear? Valves have been checked recently and were fine. Any thoughts?
Screenshot_20221006_134842.jpg
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
1,951
Location
Ca USA
Oils are graded on flow time in cSt... its not a measurement of thick or thin... one of your 40 grades flows like a 30 grade and the other flows like a 20 grade... these viscosity numbers do not represent a single cylinder shear rates... you might want to ask the lab for clarification...

full-45634-35394-viscositytest1.jpg
 
Last edited:

DB_Moto

Thread starter
Joined
Oct 6, 2022
Messages
6
Oils are graded on flow time in cSt... its not a measurement of thick or thin... one of your 40 grades flows like a 30 grade and the other flows like a 20 grade... these viscosity numbers do not represent a single cylinder shear rates... you might want to ask the lab for clarification...

full-45634-35394-viscositytest1.jpg
Thanks for the diagram and explanation. I understood that it was a flow rate at a given temperature over time. You caught me slipping. The oil thick or thin is like saying pumps create pressure, when pressure is a result of restriction to flow. With the engine oil shared eith the transmission and the single cylinder it is very prone to shearing the oil molecules. The reading is slightly better on synthetic oil than it was on conventional Dino. On the Aluminum reading 46ppm I don't have a reference to what is normal for a high strung motorcycle engine. I just know that is elevated.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
1,951
Location
Ca USA
You're welcome... you might want to see less shear but here are my notes on that subject...

Shear Stability is a measure of the amount of viscosity an oil may
lose during operation. Oil experiences very high stresses in certain
areas of the engine such as in the oil pump, cam shaft area , piston
rings, and gears or any other areas where two mating surface areas
squeeze the oil film out momentarily...

However your lab report shows as the oil sheared and flow increase the wear metal rates decrease not increase...

This is also true for Blackstone labs... they noted in testing as our oil shears down they didn't see elevated wear rates either...

My friend Dr.Dave also noted a reduction in wear metals running the quicker flowing 30 grade instead of slower 40 grade...

Quote BITOG DrDave
"My old Harley really liked 10w-30 Amsoil. These was a significant
reduction in wear metals going from 15-40 to 10-30. There were no
consumption issues. It certainly started easier. By easier I mean it
spun over much faster. The motor seemed quieter, and Harley's need all
the help they can get in that department."
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
4,502
Location
Central Wisconsin
I would suggest trying Rotella 15W-40, or 20W-50 motorcycle oil and
see if your analysis improves. If your clutch uses the same oil as the engine,
the oil will get beat up pretty bad.

My 2¢
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2003
Messages
13,426
Location
Jupiter, Florida
Try M1, 10W-40 motorcycle oil, or M1, 15W-50. Both are very shear stable and will provide better protection. You should not be using an oil with such low ZDDP. While ZDDP is said to be for "flat tappet" engines, it helps with cylinder/ring wear, roller and flat follower camshafts and more.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,075
Location
PNW
Oils are graded on flow time in cSt... its not a measurement of thick or thin...
What are you talking about. Of course the SAE grade based on KV100 is showing which oil is "thicker vs thinner" (higher vs less viscosity). Every 50 is thicker than 40, every 40 is thicker than 30 and every 30 is thicker than 20. "Thicker" means more viscosity of course. Higher KV100 means more viscosity and a "thicker" oil.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,075
Location
PNW
Both samples show lower viscosity ratings than expected. 10w40 should be 14.5 cST new (according to the Valvoline SDS).
That engine is shearing the oil pretty good. How much oil does that engine hold?
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,075
Location
PNW
However your lab report shows as the oil sheared and flow increase the wear metal rates decrease not increase...
Oil flow can not increase as oil becomes thinner in a system using a PD oil pump. Wear does not go down as oil becomes thinner and thinner. Go too thin and wear starts increasing pretty rapidly.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,075
Location
PNW
It's only about a 2quart system. Very similar engine as a KTM thumper like the 390 Adventure.
The smaller the sump, the more possibility for shearing with all other factors held constant. Might want to try a possible more shear stable oil, and/or shorten the OCI sone and see how that works out.

Was that Valvoline motorcycle oil that you used?
 

DB_Moto

Thread starter
Joined
Oct 6, 2022
Messages
6
The smaller the sump, the more possibility for shearing with all other factors held constant. Might want to try a possible more shear stable oil, and/or shorten the OCI sone and see how that works out.

Was that Valvoline motorcycle oil that you used?
Yes, it was Valvoline full synthetic motorcycle oil. Oil pump is a gear type. OCI is already on the shorter side. Keeping it around 3k sometimes shorter if leaving for a longer trip.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,075
Location
PNW
Yes, it was Valvoline full synthetic motorcycle oil. Oil pump is a gear type. OCI is already on the shorter side. Keeping it around 3k sometimes shorter if leaving for a longer trip.
Are you riding it at high revs a lot during those 3500 miles? A two quart sump at 3500 miles would be like taking a 6 quart sump to 10,500 miles. Then throw higher revs in on a shared sump m/c engine and it's not surprising there is quite a bit of shearing and KV100 reduction.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,075
Location
PNW
KV100 = 6.5 cSt is a "thin" 16 weight.

KV100 = 9.5 cSt is a "thin" 30 weight.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,075
Location
PNW
So the first UOA was 3,000 miles on the factory oil?
 

DB_Moto

Thread starter
Joined
Oct 6, 2022
Messages
6
So the first UOA was 3,000 miles on the factory oil?
It was on automotive conventional oil and it admittedly had more viscosity change yes, but lower wear levels. The first sample was not factory oil. Oil was sampled the first time after about the 5th oil change.
 

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
35,075
Location
PNW
It was on automotive conventional oil and it admittedly had more viscosity change yes, but lower wear levels. The first sample was not factory oil. Oil was sampled the first time after about the 5th oil change.
You can't really equate more or less wear from comparing just two UOAs. Need way more trend data than that. Mostly on a wet cluth engine. As you mentioned, it could be from the wear on the clutch basket.

Concluding that less wear was the result of shearing to a thin 16 weight is misguided information.
 
Last edited:
Top