.21 Sharp.... Winchester Is At It Again

[billt460]

I just don't see how this is going to catch on. It's basically a non heeled .22 L.R. At 1,725 FPS it's not much faster than a lot of the high velocity .22 L.R. rounds that are available. Ammo has got to be more expensive. The bullet has a non standard diameter of .2105.

That's not going to do anything for its popularity or performance. It looks to be another solution looking for a problem. The .17 HMR has caught on somewhat. But Winchesters version of that failed. I wish it luck, but I'm afraid in 5 or 10 years it will end up like the 5 MM Remington Rimfire Magnum

There are a lot of those rifles in search of ammunition. And it's expensive when you find it. We'll see what happens.

21 SHARP - New Rimfire Cartridge from Winchester -

SAAMI have published cartridge and chamber drawings of a new rimfire cartridge called 21 Sharp designed by Olin Winchester.

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[dnewton3]

It's an answer to a question no one asked ...
This is what happens when top-end management people listen to marketing folks and their "survey results".

 

[4WD]

Happy with my .22 WMR for cheap n fast … (and easy to find)

 

[Astro14]

Happy with my .22 WMR for cheap n fast … (and easy to find)

Most of my .22 WMR cost more than 9mm. Much of it more than 5.56. I like the fact that I can shoot a decent round from my Single Six, but .22WMR ain’t cheap.

 

[4WD]

Most of my .22 WMR cost more than 9mm. Much of it more than 5.56. I like the fact that I can shoot a decent round from my Single Six, but .22WMR ain’t cheap.

30 cents a round is cheap to me … Lost the .22 LR for that same SS anyway … I don’t own 9mm … just .38 & .44 and don’t think any of those are cheaper …

 

[billt460]

It's an answer to a question no one asked ...
This is what happens when top-end management people listen to marketing folks and their "survey results".

That's my take as well. But you would think after so many cartridges that have fizzled over the last few decades, they would learn. I'm a gun guy, and I generally have to look for a reason NOT to buy something new.

But this thing really has nothing to stimulate my interests. Especially with already having so many .22 rifle and pistols. These things cost a lot of money to develop. And you would think they would be more certain they'll make it up on the back end.... I just don't see it happening here. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[supton]

Same 22 cartridge? that should allow the same machinery that punches out the cases. Same overall size, so no magazine or reciever changes. Different barrel, but how many Ruger 10/22’s keep their stock barrel?

Casting different bullet diam, but I suspect no real cost there on that end. Maybe a change to crimping?

I could be wrong, but of all the attempts of making a better rimfire, this seems most likely to succeed—least amount of change required. But what does it do better? Why should anyone try this? The only thing I can think of is long range shooting. Better ballistics. Otherwise this will just violate the basic premise of why “everyone” shoots 22lr—cheap as dirt. So unless if initially the rounds are close enough in cost, I have to think this will be a dud. But even then, maybe the competition 22lr guys would be happy with slightly more costly rounds, and the ammo manufacturers more likely to make small batches, as the changeover may be minimal.

 

[Elkins45]

There’s a case where it makes sense: places where lead bullets are banned. Zinc heeled bullets aren't accurate because the base doesn’t obturate but flat based ones might be.

 

[billt460]

There’s a case where it makes sense: places where lead bullets are banned. Zinc heeled bullets aren't accurate because the base doesn’t obturate but flat based ones might be.

Zinc bullets in a .22 LR, (Norma Eco-Speed .22's), aren't accurate, because they don't have enough sectional density for their length. Most all .22 LR barrels are a 1:16" twist. This is all but perfect for 40 grain lead .22 projectiles. But too slow for Zinc, or other lightweight bullet material.

This is a very similar condition that exists in centerfire cartridges with solid copper bullets like Barnes produces. Depending on caliber and bullet weight, Barnes and other solid copper bullets require a faster twist to properly stabilize them. Over the same weight bullet in copper jacketed lead.

They're generally accurate enough for hunting at moderate ranges, to the point it won't matter. But for long range target shooting they are considered to be much too inaccurate.

Now if Winchester introduces firearms for this new caliber, (.21 Sharp), with faster twist barrels, then it might work out. But thus far I haven't read or heard anything. Time will tell.

 

[Elkins45]

Zinc bullets in a .22 LR, (Norma Eco-Speed .22's), aren't accurate, because they don't have enough sectional density for their length. Most all .22 LR barrels are a 1:16" twist. This is all but perfect for 40 grain lead .22 projectiles. But too slow for Zinc, or other lightweight bullet material.

This is a very similar condition that exists in centerfire cartridges with solid copper bullets like Barnes produces. Depending on caliber and bullet weight, Barnes and other solid copper bullets require a faster twist to properly stabilize them. Over the same weight bullet in copper jacketed lead.

They're generally accurate enough for hunting at moderate ranges, to the point it won't matter. But for long range target shooting they are considered to be much too inaccurate.

Now if Winchester introduces firearms for this new caliber, (.21 Sharp), with faster twist barrels, then it might work out. But thus far I haven't read or heard anything. Time will tell.

Yes, it all needs to be a part of a system to work correctly. Faster twist couldn’t hurt. I wonder if they plan to specify spitzer profile bullets? They could presumably still get them to work in tubular magazines since it’s a rimfire cartridge.

 

[MSCH]

I just don't see how this is going to catch on. It's basically a non heeled .22 L.R. At 1,725 FPS it's not much faster than a lot of the high velocity .22 L.R. rounds that are available. Ammo has got to be more expensive. The bullet has a non standard diameter of .2105.

That's not going to do anything for its popularity or performance. It looks to be another solution looking for a problem. The .17 HMR has caught on somewhat. But Winchesters version of that failed. I wish it luck, but I'm afraid in 5 or 10 years it will end up like the 5 MM Remington Rimfire Magnum

There are a lot of those rifles in search of ammunition. And it's expensive when you find it. We'll see what happens.

21 SHARP - New Rimfire Cartridge from Winchester -

SAAMI have published cartridge and chamber drawings of a new rimfire cartridge called 21 Sharp designed by Olin Winchester.

www.thefirearmblog.com

there seems to be many attempts in the gun world to reinvent the wheel, not very many of them are succesful;

how many years has the old 22LR been around? 100+, its cheap and common so unless you are just a collector of oddball stuff its market is probably pretty limited.

 

[userfriendly]

What will the .21 Sharp do better than the
.17 M2 ?

 

[DuckRyder]

What will the .21 Sharp do better than the
.17 M2 ?

Exactly and when's the last time you saw M2 or a new rifle chambered in it?

 

[Elkins45]

there seems to be many attempts in the gun world to reinvent the wheel, not very many of them are succesful;

how many years has the old 22LR been around? 100+, its cheap and common so unless you are just a collector of oddball stuff its market is probably pretty limited.

There are an increasing number of places in the US where lead projectiles are being banned. A rimfire cartridge optimized for non-lead bullets might be able to find a niche in those areas.

 

[billt460]

Reading over it, I didn't see any talk of a non lead projectile being mentioned. They give the bullet as weighing 25 grains. So I'm assuming that is its weight in lead. (Similar to the .22 short).

Zinc weighs only 62.5% of lead. Which means if my math is correct, that exact same 25 grain lead bullet made of Zinc would only weigh 15.6 grains. While it could no doubt be driven faster, it wouldn't have much velocity retention.

They also spec the twist rate at 1:12".... An improvement over the normal 1:16" twist of the .22 LR. Again, we'll have to wait and see until this thing actually comes out, as to what it will be loaded with. A non lead projectile could certainly be made to work... Be it Zinc, Copper, Bismuth, or whatever.

 

[userfriendly]

Exactly and when's the last time you saw M2 or a new rifle chambered in it?

I bought one in a Marlin. The box was labeled 17HMR. I kept it anyway only to find out that ammo, if I could find it was the same price or more than 17HMR.
Ammo is pretty much non existent for the 17WSM and costs as much as hand loading 204 Ruger.
A quick check showed Hornady .204 in a lead free NTX 24 grain.

 

[MSCH]

There are an increasing number of places in the US where lead projectiles are being banned. A rimfire cartridge optimized for non-lead bullets might be able to find a niche in those areas.

with the amount of 22 LR laying around, if they outlawed the manufacture of lead bullets I suspect it would take 1000 years before the last lead 22LR is spent..

One of my friends did buy a 17 WMR because he can use it for 'small game" om FL public hunting grounds... pigs being small game in FL.. that is what he bought that 17 for. so maybe they can sell some, but I have a tendency to think its alot of efort for a small result