2019 Honda Fit engine
- Thread starter blueduns
- Start date
- Status
They would have to be a material other than aluminum else the rings would rip the cylinder walls apart.
Only the pistons are aluminum for weight. Hopefully the piston does not touch anything itself.
Only the pistons are aluminum for weight. Hopefully the piston does not touch anything itself.
Very few aluminum blocks have linerless cylinders since that is a relatively expensive technology. My old BMW is linerless (at one time a Nikasil coating then changed to Alusil alloy) but the Honda has liners.
And I believe they would be cast iron, not steel.
And I believe they would be cast iron, not steel.
Honda and Toyota are still using pressed-in steel or iron liners.
Nissan and Ford are now adopting plasma arc-sprayed liners on mass-production engines. Ford created the tech but limited it to the GT and Shelby Mustang. It's now used on the 5.0L V8 and the new Altima's engines.
https://www.wardsauto.com/engines/ford-finishes-f-150-powertrain-makeover
https://www.enginetechnologyinterna...reatment-to-2-5-liter-altima-engine.html
Nissan and Ford are now adopting plasma arc-sprayed liners on mass-production engines. Ford created the tech but limited it to the GT and Shelby Mustang. It's now used on the 5.0L V8 and the new Altima's engines.
https://www.wardsauto.com/engines/ford-finishes-f-150-powertrain-makeover
https://www.enginetechnologyinterna...reatment-to-2-5-liter-altima-engine.html
The Ford technology is a bit different though, right? It is a metal liner but it's flame sprayed onto the aluminum bore. The Alusil in my BMW is completely linerless and relies on the aluminum alloy itself.
Remember the Chevrolet Vega decades ago? Block was cast from aluminum and silicone, I believe. The silicone was etched away (or was it the aluminum) to leave micro voids for the oil to reside and the piston actually rode on the surface of the etched material. It is why the engines wore out around 40-50,000 miles!
Well it wasn't "silicone", it was an aluminum-silicon alloy much like the Alusil in my BMW. As you mention, proper etching of the cylinders was key just as proper honing is for Alusil. GM struggled with that at first.
But beyond that the real problem with the Vega engine was overheating. Having an iron cylinder head didn't help.
But beyond that the real problem with the Vega engine was overheating. Having an iron cylinder head didn't help.
I had a Vega with the 40k mile silicon impregnated aluminum engine block. Never again. Also the siamesed bores didn't help with the heat issues. I was also looking at the Kia Soul but as far as I can determine, it has the silicon impregnated aluminum engine block and like I said, never again. Thanks. BD
Originally Posted by blueduns
I had a Vega with the 40k mile silicon impregnated aluminum engine block. Never again. Also the siamesed bores didn't help with the heat issues. I was also looking at the Kia Soul but as far as I can determine, it has the silicon impregnated aluminum engine block and like I said, never again. Thanks. BD
The Kia engine block is aluminum but has conventional cast iron cylinder liners. It is not linerless.
Many aluminum alloys have silicon as part of the alloy mix, that's not unusual. But that doesn't make it a linerless design.
I had a Vega with the 40k mile silicon impregnated aluminum engine block. Never again. Also the siamesed bores didn't help with the heat issues. I was also looking at the Kia Soul but as far as I can determine, it has the silicon impregnated aluminum engine block and like I said, never again. Thanks. BD
The Kia engine block is aluminum but has conventional cast iron cylinder liners. It is not linerless.
Many aluminum alloys have silicon as part of the alloy mix, that's not unusual. But that doesn't make it a linerless design.
Sorry but I spoke to a Kia parts dept and the engines have no liners. He said it's a hot mess over there with the engine failures . Replacement engines are on back order. I mean really? It's only $5-10 a liner if the manufacturer did it. I guess it's more important to spend money on car mats then to make a dependable engine.
Originally Posted by blueduns
Sorry but I spoke to a Kia parts dept and the engines have no liners. He said it's a hot mess over there with the engine failures . Replacement engines are on back order. I mean really? It's only $5-10 a liner if the manufacturer did it. I guess it's more important to spend money on car mats then to make a dependable engine.
Gee....can't have a Honda thread without a Kia/Hyundai bash.......................
Sorry but I spoke to a Kia parts dept and the engines have no liners. He said it's a hot mess over there with the engine failures . Replacement engines are on back order. I mean really? It's only $5-10 a liner if the manufacturer did it. I guess it's more important to spend money on car mats then to make a dependable engine.
Gee....can't have a Honda thread without a Kia/Hyundai bash.......................
Originally Posted by kschachn
The Ford technology is a bit different though, right? It is a metal liner but it's flame sprayed onto the aluminum bore. The Alusil in my BMW is completely linerless and relies on the aluminum alloy itself.
The Ford/Nissan tech is closer to MIG/TIG welding. A lance goes in each bore - that lance has equipment to create an arc with tungsten alloy electrodes and to pipe in an inert gas. The resulting plasma deposits that vaporized tungsten alloy to create a layer that's a few microns thick.
The Ford technology is a bit different though, right? It is a metal liner but it's flame sprayed onto the aluminum bore. The Alusil in my BMW is completely linerless and relies on the aluminum alloy itself.
The Ford/Nissan tech is closer to MIG/TIG welding. A lance goes in each bore - that lance has equipment to create an arc with tungsten alloy electrodes and to pipe in an inert gas. The resulting plasma deposits that vaporized tungsten alloy to create a layer that's a few microns thick.
Originally Posted by blueduns
Sorry but I spoke to a Kia parts dept and the engines have no liners. He said it's a hot mess over there with the engine failures . Replacement engines are on back order. I mean really? It's only $5-10 a liner if the manufacturer did it. I guess it's more important to spend money on car mats then to make a dependable engine.
Is that so? You don't appear to know anything about the metallurgy of linerless engine blocks so without more proof than "a Kia parts department" I'm going to guess they don't know what they are talking about either. The first clue in your paragraph above is that you don't save money by using linerless technology, you save weight.
Sounds more like you have some issue with Kia than anything else. Do you work at a competitor across the street or just have some other bias? If it was so easy to talk to a Kia parts department about their engines, why didn't you ask the Honda parts department about theirs?
Sorry but I spoke to a Kia parts dept and the engines have no liners. He said it's a hot mess over there with the engine failures . Replacement engines are on back order. I mean really? It's only $5-10 a liner if the manufacturer did it. I guess it's more important to spend money on car mats then to make a dependable engine.
Is that so? You don't appear to know anything about the metallurgy of linerless engine blocks so without more proof than "a Kia parts department" I'm going to guess they don't know what they are talking about either. The first clue in your paragraph above is that you don't save money by using linerless technology, you save weight.
Sounds more like you have some issue with Kia than anything else. Do you work at a competitor across the street or just have some other bias? If it was so easy to talk to a Kia parts department about their engines, why didn't you ask the Honda parts department about theirs?
Originally Posted by nthach
The Ford/Nissan tech is closer to MIG/TIG welding. A lance goes in each bore - that lance has equipment to create an arc with tungsten alloy electrodes and to pipe in an inert gas. The resulting plasma deposits that vaporized tungsten alloy to create a layer that's a few microns thick.
Thanks for the info, so it is more like Nikasil in that a layer is deposited rather than it being some inherent property of the alloy. Which makes sense because Alusil is expensive.
The Ford/Nissan tech is closer to MIG/TIG welding. A lance goes in each bore - that lance has equipment to create an arc with tungsten alloy electrodes and to pipe in an inert gas. The resulting plasma deposits that vaporized tungsten alloy to create a layer that's a few microns thick.
Thanks for the info, so it is more like Nikasil in that a layer is deposited rather than it being some inherent property of the alloy. Which makes sense because Alusil is expensive.
No bias. I wanted to buy a Soul. Can you provide some proof that the engine has liners like you claim or are you wrong? I asked the Honda pts dept about the Fit engine. They don't know. I did suspect the Fit has liners based on the reliability reports. Google the same on the Kia including the Hyundais with the same engine. I even found a class action suit. And fyi, I own both a older Honda and a Hyundai. No complaints. I'm truly looking for info on what to buy next as I keep a vehicle for a long time.
Originally Posted by blueduns
No bias. I wanted to buy a Soul. Can you provide some proof that the engine has liners like you claim or are you wrong? I asked the Honda pts dept about the Fit engine. They don't know. I did suspect the Fit has liners based on the reliability reports. Google the same on the Kia including the Hyundais with the same engine. I even found a class action suit. And fyi, I own both a older Honda and a Hyundai. No complaints. I'm truly looking for info on what to buy next as I keep a vehicle for a long time.
On that class action suit, where does it mention a linerless cylinder bore design? Did you even read it?
No bias. I wanted to buy a Soul. Can you provide some proof that the engine has liners like you claim or are you wrong? I asked the Honda pts dept about the Fit engine. They don't know. I did suspect the Fit has liners based on the reliability reports. Google the same on the Kia including the Hyundais with the same engine. I even found a class action suit. And fyi, I own both a older Honda and a Hyundai. No complaints. I'm truly looking for info on what to buy next as I keep a vehicle for a long time.
On that class action suit, where does it mention a linerless cylinder bore design? Did you even read it?
The other thing too, you're kind of looking at this backwards. Linerless cylinder technology is superior to traditional cast iron liners but it is expensive. I'd trust Honda to implement it properly if they did do so.
Honda flirted with metal-composite cylinder liners back in the 1980s-2000s - the S2K and NSX used them but Honda kept them for their JDM Si/Type-R spec Prelude/Accord/Civic/Integra. They were a mix of carbon fiber and aluminum.
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/htup-0907-honda-frm-liners/
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/htup-0907-honda-frm-liners/
Last edited:
- Status
