2018 Camaro 2.0T 6-speed

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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Last one I drove was terrible. Ist gen Sale $22K. 300HP 6-er and a 6 speed. Trans (Chinese?) was junk - unshiftable 1-2 or 2-3, engine smooth, ride good, visibility non existent.
Terrible car. Looks good from the outside. Though but the retro thing is all played out by 2018.

Mustang not much better back then.

get a used BMW Z M roadster. A real sports car.



The BMW? That is more of a luxury cruiser for the twice divorced 50 year old, not a real sportscar
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OK, having a bit of fun there, never mind me.

However, you did just tell someone to go look at a 10-12 year old BMW compared to a new car. That BMW is going to have repair bills akin to a car payment on top of the car payment. That is a tough sell... a just-off lease 2-series is a better alternative and in the same pricepoint. That said, the M Coupe is really an unsung gem and last of the straight six M cars.

The 5th Gen was weak in non-SS variant and while the V8 was a decent performer... it wasn't stellar if looking at a general sportscar. It was stuck in that retro muscle a bit much and anything not an SS or above was a rental at best.

The 6th Gen Camaro is a lot better. In fact, the V6 finally made sense, the boosted fours were not out yet when I test-drove it. Actually, I would recommend the V6 over the V8 because you actually get to use the power on normal roads. The V8 makes sense more on the track. The handling was great considering the size (more in a bit). I liked it and that is coming from someone who drives Zs and MR2s. However, it can hide its proportions and the viability never really lets you know where you are in a turn. So it was a car that could handle being tossed in but would not be inspiring confidence. My surprise was how well it could stop. The car felt a good 500 lighter when you hit the middle pedal hard.

Now here is the trick... if you were going to tell me to go buy the Camaro with the 2.0 or the 2-series 2.0 (ie the 230i), I would probably go with the Camaro. The 2-series is the slightly nicer car overall, but the Camaro is both lighter and more powerful. However, the trick is that the BMW feels much smaller and more nimble... the Camaro seems to driver larger than it is while the BMW is the opposite. Still, low 20s for the Camaro will win every since time over the BMW price premium for me.

Heck, that was one perk of the Genesis Coupe (dealers were desperate to sell)... and I could see some I4 Camaros going for near $20K. Is it the "best"? No. Is it the "best" at the discounted pricepoint, maybe? Still can't see the apex to hit the apex.


Actually the V8 is good around town because of the torque. You barely even have to shift, and if you get the dual-mode exhaust you can set off car alarms if you floor it in track mode.
 
Originally Posted By: oilpsi2high
Originally Posted By: Rand
edit: where are you seeing a 2018 for 20k?I'm showing the LS base model for nearly 27000 msrp and sales around 24500+tax/fees

Just go on cars.com, sort lowest to highest and then go to the dealer's website to confirm.

"Sir Walter Chevrolet" of North Carolina has several base 1LS Camaro's for about $20k, maybe the $800 destination charge not included, hard to tell...
This result was from searching on Cars.com within 500 miles of zip code 10032 (NY city).
You can't really check the dealership for "availability" since it requires an email exchange with sales people that none of us want. (!!)

Where did you see your $20k Camaro LS base model at? Hard to find at that price.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Now here is the trick... if you were going to tell me to go buy the Camaro with the 2.0 or the 2-series 2.0 (ie the 230i), I would probably go with the Camaro. The 2-series is the slightly nicer car overall, but the Camaro is both lighter and more powerful. However, the trick is that the BMW feels much smaller and more nimble... the Camaro seems to driver larger than it is while the BMW is the opposite. Still, low 20s for the Camaro will win every since time over the BMW price premium for me.

A 2018 LS Camaro is only 50 lbs lighter than a 2018 BMW 230i, almost identical weight.
But the Camaro has a lot bigger footprint, oddly:
Camaro: 188" x 75"
230i: 175" x 70"
GM has been able to get a lot of mass out of their vehicles lately, seeing this efficiency across their line-up in the recent Cruze, Malibu, Equinox, etc. compared to previous generation models.

Since GM has also engineered the steering and handling to be excellent, the BMW looks even worse by comparison. Some comparisons I've seen have the Camaro winning on the track, and for driving feel too.
 
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No argument that the Camaro is a nice car, but I wanted something smaller that was track capable and that was relatively quick. For me a CPO M235i ticked all the boxes. Aside from the fact that a car that runs the quarter in the high twelves can no longer be considered seriously fast, I'm very happy with the 2er.
But, as per my sig, buy what makes you smile...
 
I think I'd rather buy $20k worth of GM stock, and have them pay me dividends, rather than buying the Camaro, and having to deal with it for the next few years.

BC.
 
Originally Posted By: oilpsi2high
Actually the V8 is good around town because of the torque. You barely even have to shift, and if you get the dual-mode exhaust you can set off car alarms if you floor it in track mode.


Yeah, that would be my problem as my commute would be a trail of alarms in my wake.
laugh.gif


Still, for a spirited post-work commutes, the V8 is just too much power (to use it all). I am semi-lucky. The only real redeeming factor in the mountains is great driving roads. Maybe out west with the straight roads it is better but in my area with the mountain esses, it must remain untapped unless you want to meet a cliff. The Camaro in the top of a tree might originate here. Heck, even the newer V6 is a bit too much to use. The 2.0 will have more fun thrashing it between 20mph and the "speed limit".


Meadow-Fork-Rd-1.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Now here is the trick... if you were going to tell me to go buy the Camaro with the 2.0 or the 2-series 2.0 (ie the 230i), I would probably go with the Camaro. The 2-series is the slightly nicer car overall, but the Camaro is both lighter and more powerful. However, the trick is that the BMW feels much smaller and more nimble... the Camaro seems to driver larger than it is while the BMW is the opposite. Still, low 20s for the Camaro will win every since time over the BMW price premium for me.

A 2018 LS Camaro is only 50 lbs lighter than a 2018 BMW 230i, almost identical weight.
But the Camaro has a lot bigger footprint, oddly:
Camaro: 188" x 75"
230i: 175" x 70"
GM has been able to get a lot of mass out of their vehicles lately, seeing this efficiency across their line-up in the recent Cruze, Malibu, Equinox, etc. compared to previous generation models.

Since GM has also engineered the steering and handling to be excellent, the BMW looks even worse by comparison. Some comparisons I've seen have the Camaro winning on the track, and for driving feel too.


The BMW is a better overall car... but you are paying 80% more for the "better-ness". At any price, the 2-series is one of the best drivers cars (and the last remaining true BMW drivers cars). For a DD to thrash, the Camaro is better for the cost/benefit. You get more bang but it has its flaws. The BMW does not have the drawbacks.

Yeah, the Camaro is bigger and lighter (I think they shaved 50lbs from not having windows glass... and 50lbs is everything on the interwebz, lol)... but if feels bigger than it actually is. The 2-ers feel smaller a lighter than what it is. So the actual size and driving feel is the exact opposite, despite the Camaro feeling better at the wheel. I thought the steering feel, turn-in was better but it might have been more of a wheel/tire choice as the Camaros have the 245s up front had more bite than the BMW options (and my Ginny's 225s).

My Ginny feels like a 3,500lbs car ... and it is 183 x 74... and felt a order of magnitude smaller than the Camaro. It also felt more mid-90s Japanese GT/Sportscar compared to the half-sized muscle Camaro. The Camaro suffers from looking back in its design language. But the turbo-4 and V6 are great drivers, the chassis is excellent, tuned well but the way I look at it is a "fit" person in a cheap, ill-fitting suit. The BMW is the same body type but in a well tailored suit.

And the GTI felt like the old guy that is letting it go in a track suit (trying to be cool at the local college bar). Man, that (MkVII) was the most disappointing driver's experience I have hooned since a SN-95 conv. with a V6 + slushbox. The GTI is a fun-ish commuter box but it is not a fun performance/sportscar. Worse, it is sterile. The Camaro in 2.0 is in a completely different fun/[performance league that the GTI. The only reason for a GTI is to have a commuter and that the Corolla does not offer tartan seats (and that you did not know about a Honda Accord with a stick). Then again, I like visceral vehicles....
 
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
I think I'd rather buy $20k worth of GM stock, and have them pay me dividends, rather than buying the Camaro, and having to deal with it for the next few years.

BC.


Yes....if you had bought $20K worth of GM stock in 2007 it would be worth NOTHING now....
 
The Mustang has more headroom than the Camaro 6th gen. I wanted to buy one but decided I had to have a larger car so I got another Challenger. Visibility seems better with the latest gen Camaro, but still not as good as the Mustang. For similar prices def check out the Mustang 2.3T.
 
I looked at all three ponycars before I landed on my M235i...

1. Camaro SS2 1LE- A riot to drive, even found one with Recaros and without a hole in the roof. Outward visibility is what disqualified it.
2. 2015 Challenger- Had to be an SRT to get all the goodies that made it track capable, I was very tempted but didn't relish wearing out multiple sets of 20" tires
3. 2015 Mustang GT Premium Performance Package- Found a CPO in Guard(Dark Green) with most every option. Drove it, but waited two days to pull the trigger- by then it had sold.
 
Originally Posted By: pbm
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
I think I'd rather buy $20k worth of GM stock, and have them pay me dividends, rather than buying the Camaro, and having to deal with it for the next few years.

BC.


Yes....if you had bought $20K worth of GM stock in 2007 it would be worth NOTHING now....


What does 2007 have to do with this conversation?
No one has mentioned 2007 anything.

But, what I can tell you is that if I had bought $20k in GM on 11/18/2010, which was the first day of trading on "New GM" stock, that would have gotten me 616 shares, which today would be worth $27,134.80, and would have netted me an additional $3,236.84 in dividend payments, bringing my total up to $30,371.64, which would be much more than a $20k 2010 GM product would be worth today.

I feel that the GM stock today would still be worth something 7 years in the future, and would be worth investing in.

So lets try Ford stock instead.
Since you didn't specify a date in 2007, I will use 12/31/2007, which the stock traded at $6.11.
That would have gotten me 3,273 shares of Ford.

Those 3,723 shares of Ford stock today would be worth $42,815.05, and would have gotten me around $11,894.86 in dividend payments, which means that my Ford stock is now worth $54,709.91. That's much better than how much a $20k 2007 Ford would be worth, by a significant amount. And, I wouldn't have had to own a Ford during that time frame.

So yeah, I'll say it again.
I would MUCH rather buy $20k in Ford or GM stock, TODAY, rather than buy either of their $20k pony cars.

BC.
 
Originally Posted By: 2strokeNorthstar
Camaros have a history of horrible longevity and non existent resale value. Just something to consider.


what?

Resale Sure.

Longevity? Most live a long time unless they are wrecked.
 
I don't think longevity will be an issue with the new Camaro. I still see them on the road almost daily from the 1990s-2000s. GM makes a good drivetrain and IMO better overall than Ford. I do like Ford modular motors, though.
 
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
I don't think longevity will be an issue with the new Camaro. I still see them on the road almost daily from the 1990s-2000s. GM makes a good drivetrain and IMO better overall than Ford. I do like Ford modular motors, though.


+1

Those mid-90s were better than a lot of folks gave them credit. One of my grad school buddies had a mid 90s with the LT1 which was beat without mercy. He did not have any real issues with it as a DD and AutoX rat. We were often personally competing with each others over who would buy lunch.


Resale is not all that "horrific" either for the 5th and 6th. 5th Gen V8s still command (at retail) $20K+ in my area with decent, non-abused examples. V6 hurt a bit more, $15K can get a nicer example. Considering that the Camaro is not a crossover, that is not bad. Heck, at a quick glance they are holding their value better than Mustangs (barely).
 
Clean decent mileage 4th gens are selling for 8000 to 15000. Some of these cars are 20 years old.

Lots of old F-bodies driving around. Especially the V8 models. Even though beat on they were mostly cared for and it is hard to kill an SBC.
 
I think the longevity issue is because most people who buy those cars destroy them by driving them like fools. Kind've the old saying about being careful buying used sports cars because they probably had the life driven out of them by the previous owner.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I think the longevity issue is because most people who buy those cars destroy them by driving them like fools. Kind've the old saying about being careful buying used sports cars because they probably had the life driven out of them by the previous owner.



Unless it is a proper Japanese-made sportscar... then those could be driven to the edge and still be tight as a drum. As compared to a GTI that will fail to drive to the edge of the cul-de-sac and back without paying for the VW's service manager's kids tuition at the private college.
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Most Corvettes will normally be garage queens so no worries there.

Then again, I remember your Accord search. You can find nice "used" sportscars with the previous owner having a "sense of pride" as compared to more commuter cars being treated as an appliance. Thus, there are a % of those vehicles that are mint and "over maintained".

The sportscars to avoid for me are those that show a history of "customization" and modification. I think that is easy to spot and avoid. Not that all altered cars are bad, but many are often done with an inadequate budget, and making decisions that the manufacturer definitely considered a risk. I avoid anything whereby I think that someone named "Keith" thought that they could out-engineer those working at major manufacture to make their ride "most bestest effin-sweet" and might be using sub-standard ebay parts. Heck, I see that here with oil choice trying to mask bad over-aggressive modification/tunes. Show me the maintenance records as I will buy from another like-minded risk adverse car guy because if I ever sell a car, I have ALL the documentation. You think I would be weary of buying your 300ZX?
 
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