2017 Fiat 124 Spider v MX-5
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wemay
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Originally Posted By: Dorian
Judge me, but I would rather have the Fiat based upon reviews and sights. I think it has more personality. BUT if the Miata does drive better I would take it.
I agree. I like the Fiat a little more. More substantial feel and i love turbos. But i wouldn't hesitate to get the MX-5 if it were a much better deal.
Judge me, but I would rather have the Fiat based upon reviews and sights. I think it has more personality. BUT if the Miata does drive better I would take it.
I agree. I like the Fiat a little more. More substantial feel and i love turbos. But i wouldn't hesitate to get the MX-5 if it were a much better deal.
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
Originally Posted By: mcrn
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
gathermewool
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: mcrn
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
Twin scroll
Originally Posted By: mcrn
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
Twin scroll
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: mcrn
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
Twin scroll
...if it's connected to an even number of cylinders, yes.
And super-short, extremely well-optimized exhaust manifolds that keep the turbos very close to the exhaust ports, without bends that are so tight that they choke off exhaust flow.
And tiny turbos with very light internals and super-low-friction bearings.
And a really short intake tract that somehow also has a big enough intercooler.
And a variable-geometry feature in the turbos.
And throttle mapping that briefly opens the throttle too far on tip-in to get an extra burst of air, a la 2017 911.
And insanely well controlled diverter valves/wastegates.
And enough displacement to spool the turbos at all times.
And basically zero exhaust backpressure downstream of the turbos.
And probably a few other things I don't understand.
All that just to come close to the throttle response of a mediocre NA engine.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: mcrn
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
Twin scroll
...if it's connected to an even number of cylinders, yes.
And super-short, extremely well-optimized exhaust manifolds that keep the turbos very close to the exhaust ports, without bends that are so tight that they choke off exhaust flow.
And tiny turbos with very light internals and super-low-friction bearings.
And a really short intake tract that somehow also has a big enough intercooler.
And a variable-geometry feature in the turbos.
And throttle mapping that briefly opens the throttle too far on tip-in to get an extra burst of air, a la 2017 911.
And insanely well controlled diverter valves/wastegates.
And enough displacement to spool the turbos at all times.
And basically zero exhaust backpressure downstream of the turbos.
And probably a few other things I don't understand.
All that just to come close to the throttle response of a mediocre NA engine.
another take:
Originally Posted By: mcrn
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
A tune will minimize it, but not eliminate it.
It looks like tunes available for that MultiAir 1.4T are getting 200 hp and 200 ft/lbs out of it. There's a bit more area under the curve, too.
Drive them both and decide which one feels better. Some folks want a wave of mid-range torque while others want instant response.
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Different driving experiences. The MX-5 needs to be wound out to make power, while the 124's turbo engine has all its power in the midrange. Instant throttle response vs. a bit of turbo lag.
Its that turbo lag that would make my decision.....maybe there is an aftermarket tune that will take care of any lag?
A tune will minimize it, but not eliminate it.
It looks like tunes available for that MultiAir 1.4T are getting 200 hp and 200 ft/lbs out of it. There's a bit more area under the curve, too.
Drive them both and decide which one feels better. Some folks want a wave of mid-range torque while others want instant response.
You have two companies with vastly different reputations for reliability ... near polar opposites, actually. I know they are both built by Mazda but the Fiat does come with Fiat engineering in the drivetrain. Something to consider.
Miata, hands down.
A set of coilovers and anti-roll bars, and the handling is sorted out (just like I did on mine).
You get bored with the power when it gets out of warranty...poof, add turbo/super and you get a whole new car.
A set of coilovers and anti-roll bars, and the handling is sorted out (just like I did on mine).
You get bored with the power when it gets out of warranty...poof, add turbo/super and you get a whole new car.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: earlyre
another take:
Nice share earlyre, i actually enjoy his (can't remember the tester's name) videos a lot.
another take:
Nice share earlyre, i actually enjoy his (can't remember the tester's name) videos a lot.
Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
You have two companies with vastly different reputations for reliability ... near polar opposites, actually. I know they are both built by Mazda but the Fiat does come with Fiat engineering in the drivetrain. Something to consider.
Actually, ONLY the Engine is from Fiat's parts department.
The Transmission is directly from the previous generation MX-5, and is also found in the Mazda RX-8.
The rear axle is also from the Mazda parts catalog.
BC.
You have two companies with vastly different reputations for reliability ... near polar opposites, actually. I know they are both built by Mazda but the Fiat does come with Fiat engineering in the drivetrain. Something to consider.
Actually, ONLY the Engine is from Fiat's parts department.
The Transmission is directly from the previous generation MX-5, and is also found in the Mazda RX-8.
The rear axle is also from the Mazda parts catalog.
BC.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
New Ford 2.7 in the pickups has no discernible lag to me. None. Not too big. Same for the 3.5.
Back on topic, the 124 is quite a bit better looking in person than the Miata IMO. Nicer inside as well. Makes a nice choice, what a great problem to have...
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
New Ford 2.7 in the pickups has no discernible lag to me. None. Not too big. Same for the 3.5.
Back on topic, the 124 is quite a bit better looking in person than the Miata IMO. Nicer inside as well. Makes a nice choice, what a great problem to have...
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
New Ford 2.7 in the pickups has no discernible lag to me. None. Not too big. Same for the 3.5.
To be fair, you're driving a truck. You're probably not being super-discerning about throttle response, and there's a lot of soft stuff between you and the machinery that'd mask the effect.
Two really responsive turbo cars I've driven: an F10 550i 6MT (surprisingly good car, by the way) and an F80 M3 DCT. In both cars, as long as I wasn't lugging it well below the power band, it was like you said: no discernible lag. Even still, neither engine was as razor-sharp on the throttle as a decent NA engine. There's a dullness that easily fades into the background when you're not looking for it, but it's always there. Unless you're suggesting that Ford's truck division somehow cracked the code where BMW's M division failed, I'm going to say I don't think you've found an exception to what I said.
But either way, I agree that there are engines that work just fine. The point is that they're few in number, and that those few are designed from top-to-bottom to minimize lag, which isn't the case for the Fiat.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Would be nice, but unfortunately impossible. No turbocharged engine can possibly have the throttle response of a naturally aspirated engine unless it has some kind of electric assist.
The best throttle response you can get with a turbocharged engine is "good enough that most people won't notice or care under most conditions." VERY few engines are like that, and they're medium-to-large displacement engines with tiny turbos and a ton of other design features aimed specifically at improving throttle response. Any engine that isn't like that from the factory is going to take a lot more than a tune to fix.
New Ford 2.7 in the pickups has no discernible lag to me. None. Not too big. Same for the 3.5.
To be fair, you're driving a truck. You're probably not being super-discerning about throttle response, and there's a lot of soft stuff between you and the machinery that'd mask the effect.
Two really responsive turbo cars I've driven: an F10 550i 6MT (surprisingly good car, by the way) and an F80 M3 DCT. In both cars, as long as I wasn't lugging it well below the power band, it was like you said: no discernible lag. Even still, neither engine was as razor-sharp on the throttle as a decent NA engine. There's a dullness that easily fades into the background when you're not looking for it, but it's always there. Unless you're suggesting that Ford's truck division somehow cracked the code where BMW's M division failed, I'm going to say I don't think you've found an exception to what I said.
But either way, I agree that there are engines that work just fine. The point is that they're few in number, and that those few are designed from top-to-bottom to minimize lag, which isn't the case for the Fiat.
Ah we're splitting hairs really. I own three very powerful naturally aspirated engines, one I built myself under the supervision of a 3rd gen machinist with over 500 hp. If you want to talk about overall responsiveness, meaning on AND off the throttle, then I agree that the turbo'd engines that deliver that characteristic are few and far between.
But seriously, for most this means simply what happens as you open the throttle up. Off the line lag is completely eliminated in the 2.7 Ford powerplant. It is a truly amazing little mill, and if you haven't driven one you have no idea. No lugging is even possible below the power band, as full torque is just off idle. My pilot buddy's 2.7 equipped Ford leaps off the line like you kicked it in the butt, truly amazing for such a heavy truck and such a small engine...
But seriously, for most this means simply what happens as you open the throttle up. Off the line lag is completely eliminated in the 2.7 Ford powerplant. It is a truly amazing little mill, and if you haven't driven one you have no idea. No lugging is even possible below the power band, as full torque is just off idle. My pilot buddy's 2.7 equipped Ford leaps off the line like you kicked it in the butt, truly amazing for such a heavy truck and such a small engine...
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