2014 Acura RLX Suspension Walkaround

[Norm Olt]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I'm not a fan of 4-wheel steering or AWD. Real sports cars and race cars almost never use those gimmicks. Although there are some stitations where AWD can be helpful-high pwered car driven in bad weather. RWD is where it's at.


I'll agree with the 1st 7 words of your post...

Cheers!

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I'm not a fan of 4-wheel steering or AWD. Real sports cars and race cars almost never use those gimmicks. Although there are some stitations where AWD can be helpful-high pwered car driven in bad weather. RWD is where it's at.


Many a Viper have been wrecked due to the high powered RWD with inexperienced drivers. AWD would help the situation maybe. Or is it the type of person attracted to the car I don't get it.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Norm Olt
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I'm not a fan of 4-wheel steering or AWD. Real sports cars and race cars almost never use those gimmicks. Although there are some stitations where AWD can be helpful-high pwered car driven in bad weather. RWD is where it's at.


I'll agree with the 1st 7 words of your post...

Cheers!


So you disagree race cars are RWD and AWD is most helpful in high powered cars driven in bad weather.

I dislike AWD in a sports car-the way it screws up weight distribution (except for rear-engine Porsche adds weight and complexity, screws with the steering feel. As far as I'm concerned AWD is almost as bad as FWD. Do not want.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I'm not a fan of 4-wheel steering or AWD. Real sports cars and race cars almost never use those gimmicks. Although there are some stitations where AWD can be helpful-high pwered car driven in bad weather. RWD is where it's at.


Many a Viper have been wrecked due to the high powered RWD with inexperienced drivers. AWD would help the situation maybe. Or is it the type of person attracted to the car I don't get it.



AWD might help inept drivers, but so would reducing the power and performance level. But AWD is not going to make the car faster on a race track or improve the ride and handling feel. Maybe those people who wreck high-powered RWD cars should either learn to be better drivers or get a lower-powered FWD car

.

 

[Norm Olt]

Race cars and track days are, for the most part, pretty far removed from what I consider to be relevant in so far as driving on public roads is concerned: this goes for motorcycles, cars and trucks.

When one gets into off road, or actually considers buying a dedicated race car or bike, it is a whole different fish (or can-o-worms, if you prefer)... Make mine Vintage, please.

AWD only comes in handy if you happen to operate your vehicle in a location where it ever rains or snows. Having grown up in Ohio when about the only FWD cars I can remember were my Dad's Simca, the Toronado & Eldorado, and an occasional (very occasional!) Renault or Citroen, RWD was the "norm" for Norm (pun intended). We drove in snow, sleet, ice and rain with snow tires (maybe) and chains in the winter, and nobody thought a thing about it. No GPS, traction control, lane warning systems, etc., ad nauseum & ad infinitum...

IMHO modern AWD systems are now (and have been for a couple decades) so sophisticated that at any reasonable speed or situation they are transparent, certainly MORE transparent than the current... Oh, never mind that!

I would point to the fact that modern Ralley vehicles are, for the most part, AWD. These guys go so fast on paved and unpaved roads that it is scary. I would be much more thrilled to be in the passenger seat of a professionally driven Ralley car on the road than in a race car on a track under the same circumstances.

Cheers!

p.s. Maybe a ride in a Navy jet off and back to a carrier might be even more fun?

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
So you disagree race cars are RWD and AWD is most helpful in high powered cars driven in bad weather.

I dislike AWD in a sports car-the way it screws up weight distribution (except for rear-engine Porsche adds weight and complexity, screws with the steering feel. As far as I'm concerned AWD is almost as bad as FWD. Do not want.


Do I need to post pictures of AWD and FWD race cars?

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
So you disagree race cars are RWD and AWD is most helpful in high powered cars driven in bad weather.

I dislike AWD in a sports car-the way it screws up weight distribution (except for rear-engine Porsche adds weight and complexity, screws with the steering feel. As far as I'm concerned AWD is almost as bad as FWD. Do not want.


Do I need to post pictures of AWD and FWD race cars?

The Pirelli World Challenge is full of both; from a front wheel drive TSX that can take out Camaros and Boss 302 Mustangs to an all wheel drive Audi R8.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: rjundi

Many a Viper have been wrecked due to the high powered RWD with inexperienced drivers. AWD would help the situation maybe. Or is it the type of person attracted to the car I don't get it.


Until the newer gen Vipers did not have any electronic nannies to assist you. Not even ABS.
A wonderful car on the track, it is super responsive to a good driver. A terrible street car IMO that sounds like a UPS truck.

AWD has its place. You guys up north should like it. I also think it can make a bad driver look good in some versions. I am also not a fan.

I have seen many an Audi get humbled at the track if it is not short and tight where the awd can rescue a driver with sloppy technique. AWD exacts penalties for the traction improvements that are not commensurate with the dynamic penalties, IMO.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: rjundi

Many a Viper have been wrecked due to the high powered RWD with inexperienced drivers. AWD would help the situation maybe. Or is it the type of person attracted to the car I don't get it.


Until the newer gen Vipers did not have any electronic nannies to assist you. Not even ABS.
A wonderful car on the track, it is super responsive to a good driver. A terrible street car IMO that sounds like a UPS truck.

AWD has its place. You guys up north should like it. I also think it can make a bad driver look good in some versions. I am also not a fan.

I have seen many an Audi get humbled at the track if it is not short and tight where the awd can rescue a driver with sloppy technique. AWD exacts penalties for the traction improvements that are not commensurate with the dynamic penalties, IMO.


Yes that's the way I see it. The best driving feel cars are RWD. I am not for the weight, cost, complexity, efficiency and steering feel penalty of AWD. I like a car that can be coaxed to oversteer anyway.

To hear some on here tell it even F1 and drag cars would be competitive with FWD or AWD lol.

I live in the north and I don't drive fast on snow covered or slick roads .and do not want AWD I'd take a FWD over AWD if I had to choose between only the two. About the same thing in desirability as far as I'm concerned. Where AWD makes sense to me is western mountain states with grades and where they don't keep the roads as clear.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
To hear some on here tell it even F1 and drag cars would be competitive with FWD or AWD lol.


That's not how organized racing works. When you race you're running in a series, which is regulated by a set of rules. It isn't as simple as showing up with an AWD car in Formula One and having a go. Those guys don't choose the drivetrain configuration, it's already chosen for them and they build a car around it.

Concerning drag racing, it doesn't matter which drivetrain configuration is ultimately ideal. If you want to run a FWD car there's a class for it, where RWD cars and AWD cars don't play.

Virtually nobody enters racing with the attitude that they want to break land speed records. They do so with the attitude that they want to win. If choosing a FWD platform for whatever series they've chosen is the way to go, that's what they buy and develop.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
To hear some on here tell it even F1 and drag cars would be competitive with FWD or AWD lol.


That's not how organized racing works. When you race you're running in a series, which is regulated by a set of rules. It isn't as simple as showing up with an AWD car in Formula One and having a go. Those guys don't choose the drivetrain configuration, it's already chosen for them and they build a car around it.

Concerning drag racing, it doesn't matter which drivetrain configuration is ultimately ideal. If you want to run a FWD car there's a class for it, where RWD cars and AWD cars don't play.

Virtually nobody enters racing with the attitude that they want to break land speed records. They do so with the attitude that they want to win. If choosing a FWD platform for whatever series they've chosen is the way to go, that's what they buy and develop.


True racing has classes. And the highest classes of road course (F1) and drag racing are RWD because they achieve the highest performance all else equal. If drag racing or road racing performance at the highest class could be improved with FWD or AWD over RWD, then it would be used at the highest classes. But the added weight and inefficiency of all AWD and the lower performance of FWD would not improve performance levels. Mid-engine RWD is proven to be the ultimate in performance.

If someone was trying to beat a record, with the only requirement that the vehicle be wheel powered, they would use RWD.

You seem to be suggesting a Top fuel drag car or formula 1 with AWD would provide equal or better performance. No it would just make them heavier, more complex and expensive, less efficient and lower performing. They don't need and wouldn't benefit from AWD.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
True racing has classes. And the highest classes of road course (F1) and drag racing are RWD because they achieve the highest performance all else equal. If drag racing or road racing performance at the highest class could be improved with FWD or AWD over RWD, then it would be used at the highest classes. But the added weight and inefficiency of all AWD and the lower performance of FWD would not improve performance levels. Mid-engine RWD is proven to be the ultimate in performance.

If someone was trying to beat a record, with the only requirement that the vehicle be wheel powered, they would use RWD.

You seem to be suggesting a Top fuel drag car or formula 1 with AWD would provide equal or better performance. No it would just make them heavier, more complex and expensive, less efficient and lower performing. They don't need and wouldn't benefit from AWD.


But you're talking about real cars that real people drive, not highly specific one-off machines that exist for a painfully focused purpose.

Being mid engined and RWD doesn't make an MR2 better or faster than a number of FWD or AWD cars that cost the same or even less. Choosing the MR2 over something else simply because it's the same drivetrain configuration as an F1 car is kinda dumb. You choose an MR2 for other reasons, or you don't choose an MR2 for other reasons.

The point is is that if somebody could find an advantage with a FWD or AWD car and be allowed to run it in F1 they would do so. With KERS being what it is we're not too far away from them being able to put electric motors on the front wheels without a massive weight/complexity penalty. But because it's a racing class, they won't let them do that if it gives one team too great of an advantage.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't believe someone could find an advantage or even be competitive in F1 with AWD and especially not FWD. The AWD/FWD would have to be limited to the same maximum tire width and engine size as the RWD, otherwise the RWD cars could increase engine size and tire width and have a greater power and traction advantage.

True, being front or rear mid-engine RWD doesn't automatically give any and every car a performance/cost advantage to any and everything FWD/AWD available especially lower powered and street cars. But there are a bunch of FMR RMR cars that it does, Corvette, Porsche Cayman etc. I would include other examples like Mustang, Camaro etc, but it would be hard to argue they are really FMR and not FR.

 

[SteveSRT8]

It seems as though "race" cars are used when the example suits and then "street" cars are mentioned.

Someone needs to make up their mind. Are we talking about street cars or race cars?

And I am sorry but the dynamics of the various configurations are well documented. They have also been experienced by many older drivers who have bought/sold a lot of cars and trucks of all kinds.

 

[mechanicx]

For driving feel and do want factor:

Front heavy AWD/FWD cars, NO!

Rear heavy, rear/mid longitudinal engine AWD, maybe, but still NO!

Balanced to rear heavy front/mid engine RWD, YES!

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
...

Someone needs to make up their mind. Are we talking about street cars or race cars?

...


We are talking about an RLX (at least we were) which means street car... I'd be shocked if one ever sees a track beyond a "road test" for some car rag...

This is a Sunday go to Country Club car... it will be stellar for that...

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't believe someone could find an advantage or even be competitive in F1 with AWD and especially not FWD. The AWD/FWD would have to be limited to the same maximum tire width and engine size as the RWD, otherwise the RWD cars could increase engine size and tire width and have a greater power and traction advantage.

True, being front or rear mid-engine RWD doesn't automatically give any and every car a performance/cost advantage to any and everything FWD/AWD available especially lower powered and street cars. But there are a bunch of FMR RMR cars that it does, Corvette, Porsche Cayman etc. I would include other examples like Mustang, Camaro etc, but it would be hard to argue they are really FMR and not FR.


About that first paragraph.... I don't know. Soon we're going to start seeing street cars that are AWD by virtue of electric motors at the front wheels. With the precise torque control you can get via software control I don't see a single drawback for an F1 car (or any built-from-the-ground-up-for-racing machine).

To tie that statement back into this thread, it's looking like it'll be an Honda/Acura that could be among the first to do this in a street car (NSX).

 

[Norm Olt]

When you remember the way organized racing usually reacts to any change that, when originally permissable under the rules, results in a new design that produces a winner (or, close to a winner as in the NOVI, the STP-Paxton Turbocar, etc.) they immediately...

just CHANGE THE RULES (or the Formula, if you prefer), it all makes it clear.

It may be called progress, but when the Indy Cars get too fast for the track conditions they just make it harder (smaller turbo, less displacement, etc.).

BTW, there were AWD cars running at Indy and they were competitive.

Cheers!

p.s. I still want to know what an AWS allignment will co$t?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
...

Someone needs to make up their mind. Are we talking about street cars or race cars?

...


We are talking about an RLX (at least we were) which means street car... I'd be shocked if one ever sees a track beyond a "road test" for some car rag...

This is a Sunday go to Country Club car... it will be stellar for that...


And I would absolutely agree, the larger Acuras have always been "stellar" at that!

 

[gofast182]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
...

Someone needs to make up their mind. Are we talking about street cars or race cars?

...


We are talking about an RLX (at least we were) which means street car... I'd be shocked if one ever sees a track beyond a "road test" for some car rag...

This is a Sunday go to Country Club car... it will be stellar for that...


And I would absolutely agree, the larger Acuras have always been "stellar" at that!

I dunno. It was pretty darn impressive through the auto-x at the press event. On the right you can see the P-AWS actuators doing their thing on one of the rear wheels.