2011 Civic R18 6k mi Mobil 1 AFE 0w20 two Labs

[gpshumway]

I've been chasing the cause of high aluminum readings in my Civic since new. After finding the OEM air filter lacking, I installed a Napa Select filter and that brought the silicon under control, but the aluminum remains high. Having seen MikeySoft and Nyati's experiences with lab variation in aluminum readings ( Link 1 , Link 2 ) I decided to send this sample to both Blackstone and OAI to see what variation there might be. Turns out the results are identical within the limits of normal lab variation, both show high aluminum. I also chose to send the sample in just as the OLM hit 10%, but not change the oil so I could make this oil selection based on the lab results. I'm going to try Mobil 1 AFE 0w30 this time to see if a slightly thicker oil (with the same additive package) improves the aluminum numbers.

I also paid to have both TBN and KV40 measured by both labs. The TBN came out pretty close between OAI and Blackstone, which is a slight surprise given their differing methods and change recommendations. Viscosity index is particularly sensitive to lab variation. The Blackstone viscosities calculate to a VI of 160, the OAI numbers calculate to 177. Combine one viscosity from each lab and you get 174 or 165.

Between the two reports is the entire UOA history of the car, but I didn't start using OAI until 26,000 mi, and stopped using Blackstone between 22k and 45k, so be careful trending with either report alone.






I'm not interested in any cost discussion here, so don't bother telling me to run the oil longer or to just run conventional oil. I use 0w20 because it gets cold around here, I run it for the OCI recommended by the OLM to preserve my warranty.

 

[jrustles]

Aluminum bearings?
Camshaft journal wear?
Piston scuffing?

There is plenty of aluminum in the engine, but very limited aluminum friction surfaces.

 

[Artem]

How do you drive the Civic? It's definitely well broken in by now so it's strange to see the high aluminum.

I did 10-12k mile OCIs in my 07 R18 and aluminum was 4-5ppm consistently, even with extended OCIs. Something ain't right here...

 

[Phishin]

I'm going to bet you see better aluminum number with the 0w30 AFE. Based on all the UOA's I've seen on this site and others in 4 cylinder Honda engines, I've seen a few times that aluminum numbers can be brought down with a thicker oil than 20 weight.

I bought my Honda Accord with 34k miles on it. I've been doing 5k OCI's and currently have 50k on the car. I did three OC's using 1.4 quarts M1 0w40 and 2.8 quarts of M1 0w20 AFE. Then I found some PU on clearance so now I'm running a PU 5w30.

I have no UOA to support my decision on MY engine. But I noticed a trend when I looked at a TON of UOA's.

 

[bigt61]

The Al number is generally trending down. Motor still breaking in some, even at 40k. I wouldn't worry, the oil is doing it's job. Strong TBN - keep doing what you're doing or go a little longer if you want to.

 

[buster]

I don't think that Al figure is normal. It should not be that high. Forget about the oil brand, I'm concerned something is wrong with the engine.

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
I'm going to bet you see better aluminum number with the 0w30 AFE. Based on all the UOA's I've seen on this site and others in 4 cylinder Honda engines, I've seen a few times that aluminum numbers can be brought down with a thicker oil than 20 weight.

I bought my Honda Accord with 34k miles on it. I've been doing 5k OCI's and currently have 50k on the car. I did three OC's using 1.4 quarts M1 0w40 and 2.8 quarts of M1 0w20 AFE. Then I found some PU on clearance so now I'm running a PU 5w30.

I have no UOA to support my decision on MY engine. But I noticed a trend when I looked at a TON of UOA's.

+1 Listen to this guy. That civic for some reason doesn't like this viscosity.

 

[yvon_la]

Its probably not oil related! Probably too high ethanol % in your gas.ethanol or the bio in diesel number have to be low or 0% the bio stuff literally chew anything it can access yep including silicon .

 

[Artem]

I did a search for R18 UOA's from the past and seems like many also show high Aluminum during early life. I imagine that it should have dropped by considerably by now (over 40,000 miles) so its strange to see it still so high, compared to averages.

I'm interested to see how it trends in the up coming reports.

If Honda did change something within the engine and it now sheds more aluminum, it's safe to say that it was a bad idea. (4-5ppm > 20-30ppm)

 

[FetchFar]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Aluminum bearings?
Camshaft journal wear?
Piston scuffing?

There is plenty of aluminum in the engine, but very limited aluminum friction surfaces.


My BMW has no iron cylinder liners. My GM 3.6L does have iron liners. Does Honda usually have fully exposed Al cylinder walls? or iron liners? That would make a lot of Al friction surface.

 

[yvon_la]

NHonda use steel liner

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: Artem
How do you drive the Civic? It's definitely well broken in by now so it's strange to see the high aluminum.

I did 10-12k mile OCIs in my 07 R18 and aluminum was 4-5ppm consistently, even with extended OCIs. Something ain't right here...


I don't drive it as much as my wife does. When I do I'm generally cautious, no heavy foot or high RPM until it's warm. I don't hesitate to wind it out on occasion though, Hondas like an occasional Italian tune-up. It's my wife's behavior I'm more worried about, she's a bit too reactive about downshifting and will sometimes get caught lugging the car. Could mean we're seeing aluminum bearing wear.

We of course have cold winters here, which could in theory contribute to the problem, but M1 AFE is pretty much the best cold weather oil available, and I've got both a block heater and a pan heater on the car.

I've seen your good R18 UOA reports. I was strongly considering after the warranty is up doing double the OLM OCI on either M1 EP or Edge Extended, but I won't do that until I've got this aluminum problem figured out.

Originally Posted By: Artem
I did a search for R18 UOA's from the past and seems like many also show high Aluminum during early life. I imagine that it should have dropped by considerably by now (over 40,000 miles) so its strange to see it still so high, compared to averages.

I'm interested to see how it trends in the up coming reports.

If Honda did change something within the engine and it now sheds more aluminum, it's safe to say that it was a bad idea. (4-5ppm > 20-30ppm)


Yea, the R18's seem to fit into either high aluminum or low aluminum categories. Very few show 10-15 ppm over a typical OCI, they're either in the low single digits or ~20 ppm like mine.

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
My BMW has no iron cylinder liners. My GM 3.6L does have iron liners. Does Honda usually have fully exposed Al cylinder walls? or iron liners? That would make a lot of Al friction surface.


The older B-series engines used Nikasil coated aluminum cylinders, I believe this engine has iron liners.

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Aluminum bearings?
Camshaft journal wear?
Piston scuffing?

There is plenty of aluminum in the engine, but very limited aluminum friction surfaces.


The $64,000 question. I'd love to know where it's coming from but finding out without taking the engine apart is going to be tough.

 

[Tucson Five-O]

gpshumway,

Well, just how often or bad does your wife lug the engine? If you're worried about it, then you noticed it and believe it to be a problem. I'm guessing it's a manual transmission. If so, lugging, real lugging, is murder on the bearings.

Food for thought.

Good luck with your search for the high Al. Your posts and analysis are always well thought out and enjoyable to read.

Gary

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
... I believe this engine has iron liners.

...


That appears to be correct, see:

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0704_ht_r18_engine/viewall.html

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: Tucson Five-O
gpshumway,

Well, just how often or bad does your wife lug the engine? If you're worried about it, then you noticed it and believe it to be a problem. I'm guessing it's a manual transmission. If so, lugging, real lugging, is murder on the bearings.

Food for thought.

Good luck with your search for the high Al. Your posts and analysis are always well thought out and enjoyable to read.

Gary


Thanks for the kind words. It's funny. When we bought this car we seriously considered a CR-Z, which has a shift light. I was amazed on the test drive how aggressive said light was about the up-shift points. If lugging the engine is the cause of the high Al in this R18, the electric-assist must do a lot more than I think it does in the CR-Z.

My wife will occasionally get caught in 3rd or 4th when she should be in 2nd or 3rd, but she doesn't ride it out, she realizes her error after less than a second and downshifts. More common is a situation where traffic at a stop light starts moving just as you get there, putting you in a conundrum; downshift to first and abuse the syncros or leave it in second and lug the engine for a second. Of course both situations happen in our WRX as well, and it doesn't show High Al. The driving split is about 2/3 - 1/3 she drives the Civic 2/3 of the time.

In the end I think the most likely cause is production variation in the engines. As Artem said, mine is not the only R18 which shows elevated aluminum.

 

[mtxjohn]

Wow, those wear metals are ridiculous for a Honda. Why don't you use some true synthetic instead of base 3 pretend synthetic? Like..amsoil sso, redline, pennsoil ultra? I ran 10,500 miles on redline with 1 ppm aluminum in a j32.

If it cost less than $9 a qt its probably not true synthetic.