2 stroke engine oil comparison

[racin4ds]

[/quote]

Yeah in an ancient technology diesel like a Cummins it's no big deal, but I wouldn't do that in modern diesels. I also wouldn't advertise on a public forum that you have deleted the emissions equipment on your truck. [/quote]

Paranoid much? lol Must be that Northeastern air up there, you yankees get scared to darn easy. I know of many modern diesels and gasoline vehicles using a small dose of TC-W3 in the fuel and ZERO issues. Better MPG's and longer engine life is the only result!

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: racin4ds

Paranoid much? lol Must be that Northeastern air up there, you yankees get scared to darn easy. I know of many modern diesels and gasoline vehicles using a small dose of TC-W3 in the fuel and ZERO issues. Better MPG's and longer engine life is the only result!


Yeah I'm so paranoid. LOL. Must be all that "yankee" air bro.

 

[bubbatime]

The SuperTech JASO FD mini 50:1 bottles are convenient and cost about $1. Good stuff.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: racin4ds
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: racin4ds
TC-W3 spec is for ashless, water cooled outboard engines. NOT air cooled OPE.

It works great in low doses in your diesel truck or even in your gasoline vehicle but isn't so good for OPE. ECHO oil is pretty good stuff as is the STIHL syn variety.


Nope, don't do that. TC-W3 has no business being in the fuel system of your gasoline or diesel truck. If you want to use additives, use the ones specified for diesel trucks or gasoline cars. TC-W3 is meant for 2 stroke Marine engines which have far less complexity and emissions equipment compared to road vehicles.


Gonna have to argue you're way wrong on this one! I and MANY others have proven time and time again that low doses of TC-W3 2T oils in both gas and diesel has increased MPG, lubes the top end, extends injector life and many other benefits. My 05 PowerStroke loves it, it noticeably quiets the rattle down and makes the truck run much smoother. I overdose with the Pennzoil outboard stuff usually a quart to a full tank of fuel (25 gallons)

Ask the Cummins guys how much this helps the old injection pumps live on the 12V motors!

BTW- I have NO emissions equipment on my truck anymore (the dreaded 6.0)... its been gone a LONG time, hence why it still runs perfect to this day!



Yeah in an ancient technology diesel like a Cummins it's no big deal, but I wouldn't do that in modern diesels. I also wouldn't advertise on a public forum that you have deleted the emissions equipment on your truck.
Manufacturers say burning a quart of motor oil ever 1000 miles or so is no big deal. I'm going to go with burning a much lesser amount of oil designed to be used in the fuel is not going to hurt anything. I use TCW3 in all my 4 stroke OPE. I'd use it in my truck but I'm lazy. I top off the tank too often.

 

[Kamele0N]

Originally Posted By: racin4ds

Paranoid much? lol Must be that Northeastern air up there, you yankees get scared to darn easy. Iknow of many modern diesels and gasoline vehicles using a small dose of TC-W3 in the fuel and ZERO issues. Better MPG's and longer engine life is the only result! [/quote]

Modern diesels have tiny piezzo injectors...and in 99% 2stroke oils on the market have dye in them (red, blue, green, whatever...)

1+1=....?

 

[racin4ds]

Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: racin4ds

Paranoid much? lol Must be that Northeastern air up there, you yankees get scared to darn easy. Iknow of many modern diesels and gasoline vehicles using a small dose of TC-W3 in the fuel and ZERO issues. Better MPG's and longer engine life is the only result!


Modern diesels have tiny piezzo injectors...and in 99% 2stroke oils on the market have dye in them (red, blue, green, whatever...)

1+1=....?

[/quote]

Kameleon and your point is?? Do you think the dye is going to hurt something?

Here in America, I don't think the tiny piezzo injectors are in the light duty trucks, maybe in the VW and Audi diesel cars..

 

[andyd]

I have a 1qt bottle of Valvoline dino Universal 2 stroke oil. Says it is OK for outboards and air cooled both. I mix 32:1 for everything a gallon at a time. Nothing has burned out yet. Nor has a plug fouled or a port clogged. I add a capful of MMO with each fillup too.

 

[1989outlaw]

Recently got rid of all the emissions nonsense on our 2017 Duramax . Sure hope I don't get in trouble . Sure does sip fuel now and will pull like diesel should.

 

[racin4ds]

Originally Posted By: 1989outlaw
Recently got rid of all the emissions nonsense on our 2017 Duramax . Sure hope I don't get in trouble . Sure does sip fuel now and will pull like diesel should.

Screw CAFE and their ridiculous regs! Its killing these newer diesel trucks and only drives up the cost to own and maintain them!!!

 

[SubLGT]

Originally Posted by juicer
I have a variety of small garden power tools. RedMax leaf blower, Stihl chainsaw and McCullough line trimmer.
In the past I used Echo Power Blend X 2 stroke engine oil, pure synthetic with stabilizers. Meets or exceeds ISO-EGD & JASO FD..


ECHO claims that their more expensive Red Armor 2-cycle oil results in only 1% exhaust port blockage after 75 hours of use, compared to:

27% blockage with Husqvarna oil after 50 hours

72% blockage at 32 hours with Stihl oil.

They did not include their less expensive Power Blend Gold oil in the comparison test.

https://www.echo-usa.com/Products/Red-Armor-Fuel-Oil/36x24_RED_ARMOR_Test_3_OL.pdf

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted by SubLGT
Originally Posted by juicer
I have a variety of small garden power tools. RedMax leaf blower, Stihl chainsaw and McCullough line trimmer.
In the past I used Echo Power Blend X 2 stroke engine oil, pure synthetic with stabilizers. Meets or exceeds ISO-EGD & JASO FD..


ECHO claims that their more expensive Red Armor 2-cycle oil results in only 1% exhaust port blockage after 75 hours of use, compared to:

27% blockage with Husqvarna oil after 50 hours

72% blockage at 32 hours with Stihl oil.

They did not include their less expensive Power Blend Gold oil in the comparison test.

https://www.echo-usa.com/Products/Red-Armor-Fuel-Oil/36x24_RED_ARMOR_Test_3_OL.pdf




As linked, it 's pretty meaningless. No mention of the mix ratios or test conditions. Also they're comparing their premium oil to Stihl's non premium oil.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Twin....

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Originally Posted by racin4ds
Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Originally Posted by racin4ds
TC-W3 spec is for ashless, water cooled outboard engines. NOT air cooled OPE.

It works great in low doses in your diesel truck or even in your gasoline vehicle but isn't so good for OPE. ECHO oil is pretty good stuff as is the STIHL syn variety.


Nope, don't do that. TC-W3 has no business being in the fuel system of your gasoline or diesel truck. If you want to use additives, use the ones specified for diesel trucks or gasoline cars. TC-W3 is meant for 2 stroke Marine engines which have far less complexity and emissions equipment compared to road vehicles.


Gonna have to argue you're way wrong on this one! I and MANY others have proven time and time again that low doses of TC-W3 2T oils in both gas and diesel has increased MPG, lubes the top end, extends injector life and many other benefits. My 05 PowerStroke loves it, it noticeably quiets the rattle down and makes the truck run much smoother. I overdose with the Pennzoil outboard stuff usually a quart to a full tank of fuel (25 gallons)

Ask the Cummins guys how much this helps the old injection pumps live on the 12V motors!

BTW- I have NO emissions equipment on my truck anymore (the dreaded 6.0)... its been gone a LONG time, hence why it still runs perfect to this day!



Yeah in an ancient technology diesel like a Cummins it's no big deal, but I wouldn't do that in modern diesels. I also wouldn't advertise on a public forum that you have deleted the emissions equipment on your truck.


I have deletes and have been running TCW3 in my Cummins 6.7 since forever. Love it. Find another 6.7 owner with more than 1/4 million miles on one set of injectors.
Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Originally Posted by racin4ds

Paranoid much? lol Must be that Northeastern air up there, you yankees get scared to darn easy. Iknow of many modern diesels and gasoline vehicles using a small dose of TC-W3 in the fuel and ZERO issues. Better MPG's and longer engine life is the only result!


Modern diesels have tiny piezzo injectors...and in 99% 2stroke oils on the market have dye in them (red, blue, green, whatever...)

1+1=....?

[/quote]

The diesel fuel has a dye too. I don't think it's naturally dayglo green.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted by juicer
I have a variety of small garden power tools. RedMax leaf blower, Stihl chainsaw and McCullough line trimmer.
In the past I used Echo Power Blend X 2 stroke engine oil, pure synthetic with stabilizers. Meets or exceeds ISO-EGD & JASO FD.
I am curious if Walmart brand Super Tech Universal 2-cycle Engine Oil or Super Tech Outboard TC-W3 2-cycle is a reasonable substitution.
Each of Super Tech oils specify suitable for lawn mowers. line trimmers and chain saws.


Amsoil Saber or Klotz Techniplate will have you going forever. Can buy both in big quantity and save money.

 

[SubLGT]

In another thread here a member posted this link, with a little bit of interesting history about 2-cycle oils for air cooled and water cooled engines.

http://greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=128249



Quote
Quote from Spectro oils:

Most of the OEM manufacturers oils are produced by specialty lubricant manufacturers, not the OEM and these formulas are tested and approved by the manufacturer for use in their sleds. The oils are blended according to a formula that has been developed for two-stroke snowmobile engines and this oil is usually given a rating from the American Petroleum Institute (API) of "TC", the Boating Industry Association (BIA) rating of "TC-W", or the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) rating of "TC-W II." All of these formulas were originally developed for outboard engines and were modified to suit the needs of snowmobile engines; however, motorcyclists that used these oils found that their air cooled engines ran the best on the oldest API TC oils. These API TC formulas contained a higher level of bright stock 150, a high density petroleum base stock with a consistency similar to honey, that gave the best protection against piston seizure and bearing failure. To prevent carbon buildup in the piston ring grooves, these TC oils used metal based detergents that were very effective in motorcycle engines but caused some problems in outboard engines when operated at long periods of time at one throttle setting. A whisker-like bridge could form across the sparkplug gap to permanently foul a cylinder under these conditions while the motorcyclist operating his engine at a constantly changing throttle setting never encountered this problem. When the BIA developed the TC-W rating, they excluded the use of these metal-based detergents in favor of organic detergents to eliminate this problem in outboard engines. These TC-W oils (two-cycle, water cooled) also contained lighter base oils without the bright stock 150. For engines operating in the 4,000 rpm to 5,000 rpm range, the absence of the bright stock 150 had no affect on piston and bearing life. However, off-road motorcyclists testing these new TC-W oils were disappointed with the bearing life of their engines operating at 10,000 - 11,000 rpm and quickly returned to using the TC oils.

The need for a clean two-stroke outboard oil was recognized when piston ring groove carbonization was seen as a primary cause for engine failure and a new formula designated TC-W II was developed. While this oil was significantly better for outboard use and was phosphate free, it still was not the optimum two-stroke oil for engines operating above 8,000 rpm.......

The BIA evolved into the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) which works closely with the outboard manufacturers. the NMMA mandated that all oils would contain non-metallic detergent additives, no phosphorus or phosphates, if they were to have the approval of the NMMA and the outboard engine manufacturers agreed to recommend only the NMMA approved oils.

.....The combination of non-metallic detergents and high flash solvents in the new TC-W 3 oils later caused some severe ring sticking in many engines and Yamaha actually required owners to use a 'ring-free' fuel additive to maintain their warranty, a symptom of being forced by the NMMA to recommend the new oils!

...Sea-Doo and Ski-Doo didn't go with the NMMA, they refused to allow their engines to be destroyed and recommended to their owners NOT TO EVER USE TC-W3 oils! Polaris bought the TC-W3 sales pitch at first, recognizing an inventory advantage to having only one two cycle oil to be used in their watercraft, quads and snowmobiles. But they soon discovered the same problems many had already found with the TC-W3 oils when used in a sled. Ring sticking, exhaust port blocking and low temperature flow problems. Suddenly all those advantages of the TC-W3 oils they read about from the additive maker's brochures weren't working out when weighed against all the engine failures! Have you noticed they have gone back to purely snowmobile developed snowmobile oils? Currently there are not any snowmobile OEM's recommending the outboard NMMA TC-W3 oil, and there is a reason for this. They are not acceptable in today's powervalve equipped snowmobiles! ...

In Japan, engine manufacturers have developed a series of strenuous engine tests that can identify poor quality oils if they don't measure up in performance. They tested over 250 samples of two-stroke oils worldwide and used the survey results to establish these engine tests. This became the JASO classification system. (Japanese automobile standards organization).

The tests include a detergency test, lubricity test, initial torque test, exhaust smoke test and exhaust blocking test. These tests have a much closer connection to actual snowmobile engine applications compared to TC-W3 tests which are all conducted on raw-water cooled outboard engines. And for the first time ever, an oil can fail the test if it smokes too much!

The detergency test evaluates the oil's ability to maintain the cleanliness of critical engine parts, including exhaust power valves. This is very important on power valve equipped Rotax, Yamaha and Polaris engines. The lubricity test measures two things. First, the engine is run with a load for 50 minutes then the cooling system is disconnected for ten minutes and the resulting drop in horsepower is recorded. This cycle is repeated several times and each drop in power is compared and it must not vary more than a specified amount or be more than a specified amount. Then the engine is run with increasingly leaner oil ratios: 60:1, 100:1 then 150:1. If no seizure occurs and power is maintained within a specified percentage, the oil passes. The initial torque test measures the engine's startability when cold, an important consideration for 3-cylinder sleds.

The exhaust blocking and smoking tests are run by mixing the test oil at an over-rich 10:1 ratio and running it in a two-stroke portable generator. The exhaust is channeled into a chamber where a photo cell measures the light that can pass through the smoke. It sounds crude but it works! Finally, a real world test to measure exhaust smoke from two-stroke engines! The exhaust blocking test simply examines the pencil sized exhaust outlet for carbon blocking. At a 10:1 ratio, these tests are very hard to pass. The highest JASO rating is FC. Lower ratings are "FB" and "FA." An even higher "FD" rating could be seen in the future. Most TC-W3 oils will not pass any of these tests!

In Europe, European two-cycle engine manufacturers were simultaneously working on two-cycle oil tests to separate the cheap, poor quality oils from the top quality oils. They tested the JASO reference oils in European engines and their top reference oils in Japanese engines. They found that European two-stroke high performance engines needed an oil with a better detergency and higher temperature performance than the best JASO "FC" oils. In April, 1997, they published their ISO global standards for two-stroke oils with two quality level categories: ISO-L-EGB and ISO-L-EGC. The ISO-L-EGB aligns closely with JASO "FB" and the ISO-L-EGC aligns closely with JASO "FC" for minimum test standards. Then, they developed the "GD" detergency test to run hotter and longer (3 hours vs. 1 hour) than the JASO detergency test. Oils passing the new ISO quality level, ISO-L-EGD would be superior to any previous two-stroke oils available! Of course, it didn't take long for oil manufacturers to develop and test oil formulations that pass this new quality test, and most of them involve using synthetic base oils. Running these tests is a very expensive and time consuming effort but in the end, a bottle of oil with one of these JASO FC/ISO- L-EGD certified ratings means that the oil meets the highest quality tests set by the engine manufacturer in Japan and Europe.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by SubLGT
ECHO claims that their more expensive Red Armor 2-cycle oil results in only 1% exhaust port blockage after 75 hours of use, compared to:
27% blockage with Husqvarna oil after 50 hours
72% blockage at 32 hours with Stihl oil.
They did not include their less expensive Power Blend Gold oil in the comparison test.
https://www.echo-usa.com/Products/Red-Armor-Fuel-Oil/36x24_RED_ARMOR_Test_3_OL.pdf


Idon'tbelieveit. Those results make no sense what so ever.

 

[AnthemBassMan]

Where those oils run at the same mix ratios? It looks like the Red Armor was run at 80:1 and the other two were run at 16:1.

L8R,
Matt

 

[JimmyChainsaw]

I have found the industry oils,ie Stihl,Husqvarna,Shindaiwa,Echo & Oleomac have served our industry best.This is after neatly 50 years involved in the industry.It hasn't been mentioned yet but one of the most important qualities of a good 2 stroke oil is the type of carbon it produces.I have seen numerous examples of scoured pistons where a cheap 2 stroke has been used.A good oil should produce carbon which is soft and fluffy,and can be easily removed from the ex port and piston top.I bet you have all seen hard carbon which is almost impossible to remove with a scraper.I am a Stihl dealer and do like their HP and Ultra oils.However Shindaiwa One is very good,Echo Powerblend works well and the Husqvarna oils are very serviceable.Here in NZ Husqvarna recommend a 40-1 mix ratio for saws larger than 60cc.Not sure why,the bottles clearly state 50-1.Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Mike72]

Originally Posted by JimmyChainsaw
I have found the industry oils,ie Stihl,Husqvarna,Shindaiwa,Echo & Oleomac have served our industry best.This is after neatly 50 years involved in the industry.It hasn't been mentioned yet but one of the most important qualities of a good 2 stroke oil is the type of carbon it produces.I have seen numerous examples of scoured pistons where a cheap 2 stroke has been used.A good oil should produce carbon which is soft and fluffy,and can be easily removed from the ex port and piston top.I bet you have all seen hard carbon which is almost impossible to remove with a scraper.I am a Stihl dealer and do like their HP and Ultra oils.However Shindaiwa One is very good,Echo Powerblend works well and the Husqvarna oils are very serviceable.Here in NZ Husqvarna recommend a 40-1 mix ratio for saws larger than 60cc.Not sure why,the bottles clearly state 50-1.Just my 2 cents worth.



I'm happy to see someone bring up a very important fact about the type of carbon a two stroke oil produces . Years ago when regular four stroke motor oil was used in two- stroke fuel mixes the carbon it produced was hard and eventually caused damage to both pistons and cylinders, not to mention blocking ports. When the first two-stroke oils appeared on the market they were not much better. Today's technology has finally given two-stroke oil the properties it has needed all along. And one of the main ones is soft carbon. With today's quality two-stroke oils there is no scraping or chipping of hard carbon deposits. A muffler can be rinsed out with mineral spirits and be ready to go. Same goes for ports and piston tops, and the almost complete burning during combustion leaves very little smoke.

 

[bchannell]

Also another good reason to not be afraid of 40:1 or 50:1 ratios. I know we're all Americans and more is better, but I've run about a dozen chainsaws, half dozen weed eaters, some blowers, etc and various other 2 cycles and used either 40 or 50:1 and I can show you my engines, looking thru the exhaust ports they all still have the machining marks on the pistons and the cylinders look practically new. Properly maintained and accurately mixed todays 2 stroke oils are definitely up to the task. I usually am tired of the old saws long before they ever wear out and move on anyway. I just sold my 024 simply because, for the power, newer saws are lighter and easier for this ole bird to handle!