1st PGE bill since solar panel install: $15.99

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
PGE is expensive and was doing well. They have a huge system to maintain, and gas lines especially are getting old. Costs a fortune to replace and maintain gas lines. Palo Alto and Santa Clara have their own utilities, government run of sorts, and their rates are less than half PGE, or were a few years ago. But they have only a town to maintain.
Isn't that watts you are talking about not Kwh? 7000 watts makes sense but 7000kwh is a total not the rate of output.

You are correct; thanks.
I reviewed the proposal:
System Size: 5.1 kW
Estimated Production: 7,356 kWh
17 panels and 1 inverter


Obviously they anticipate a much higher CF than at more northernly latitudes, as those numbers yield a CF of ~17%, which is much higher than even commercial tracking systems up here, which are around 14%. That system, would be, perfectly mounted, capable of ~5,360kWh in southern Canada (12%). More typical yield (rooftop) which can be around 9%, would be 4,020kWh.

 

[OVERKILL]

Doing some further math (because, why not?):

Using your system, and converting that price into Canadian pesos, which is $16,150.00.

Assumed data:
Monthly usage: 800kWh
Net Metering
Delivery (unchanged): $38.00
Averaged per kWh charge (pre-delivery): $0.074
Average Capacity factor: 9%
Monthly usage displaced: 335kWh

Thus:
Monthly cost displaced: $24.79
Annual savings: $297.48
Time required to recoup cost: 54 years.

This is why feed-in tariffs were quite popular at northern latitudes, because otherwise system payback wasn't within its lifetime.

 

[4WD]

Rooftop solar is not using up any square feet of land … and can even block and air gap the radiant heat …

Wind rating would need to be known where I live … (Gulf Coast)

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Rooftop solar is not using up any square feet of land … and can even block and air gap the radiant heat …

Wind rating would need to be known where I live … (Gulf Coast)


I'm not opposed to non-subsidized rooftop solar. I'm opposed to feed-in tariffs and tax credits, since all you are doing is displacing demand. With a battery system to buffer morning and evening ramps, this can be an effective peak mitigation tool as well. Unfortunately, without managed storage you end up with a duck curve.

The issue in Canada and northern states is as I've illustrated above. Cost. The OP's system would have to be priced at $4,500.00CDN to provide a 15-year break-even point, assuming you aren't borrowing that money. A tracking array of the same size, properly oriented, would be more effective, but that'd drive up the cost. To be a proper peak mitigator, that price would need to include storage.

 

[CT8]

Bad move with the solar! I have PGE stocks.

 

[JeffKeryk]

The system has a 20 year warranty and is expected to last 25 years.
Regardless, technology will be much better by then.
Also, PGE rates will be off the chart; heck they are now.
Perhaps some of the fine calculations others are making assume static electricity costs....

Sunny CA is an optimal place for solar; I believe all new housing requires solar, not sure.
You see panels everywhere.
I am very happy with ours.
Going forward, technology will improve and costs will go down.
This will enable other areas to come on line, if they should choose to do so.

 

[SZR48207]

Originally Posted by tony1679
Originally Posted by Reddy45
Originally Posted by JustinH
Should be sounds good, but electricity in Texas is dirty cheap, so it doesn't make sense here (from a financial perspective).

It only makes sense when the government subsidizes it, or the state, or combination of both. These advantages are in California, so that makes sense in that region.


Softball sized hail is another reason why solar in TX may not work. I don't think the panels can withstand it yet.

^ABSOLUTELY THIS! Solely these two factors are the reason I haven't considered solar. Makes sense everywhere else, but not in tornado alley. Oddly enough, a local co-op does have a "solar garden." I've been watching carefully.


OEC's solar garden on I35 between Moore and Norman? Yeah we'll see how well it fares this Spring.. May is upon us LOL

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
The system has a 20 year warranty and is expected to last 25 years.
Regardless, technology will be much better by then.
Also, PGE rates will be off the chart; heck they are now.
Perhaps some of the fine calculations others are making assume static electricity costs....

Sunny CA is an optimal place for solar; I believe all new housing requires solar, not sure.
You see panels everywhere.
I am very happy with ours.
Going forward, technology will improve and costs will go down.
This will enable other areas to come on line, if they should choose to do so.
Jeff, what would you say your average electric bill was before?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
The system has a 20 year warranty and is expected to last 25 years.
Regardless, technology will be much better by then.
Also, PGE rates will be off the chart; heck they are now.
Perhaps some of the fine calculations others are making assume static electricity costs....

Sunny CA is an optimal place for solar; I believe all new housing requires solar, not sure.
You see panels everywhere.
I am very happy with ours.
Going forward, technology will improve and costs will go down.
This will enable other areas to come on line, if they should choose to do so.


I don't assume costs to be static, but BNGS, which is our largest single source of power (30%) is currently paid $0.067/kWh to rise to a whopping $0.077/kWh once their 6-unit refurbishment is complete. That will provide power until the mid 2060's. Another 25% of our power, which is hydro-electric, is currently paid $0.047/kWh, and not expected to rise significantly. 14% (3,000MW) of cheap ($0.07/kWh) nuclear will be dropping off the grid starting in 2024 as Pickering retires unless something is done. The other OPG nuclear asset, Darlington (16%, 3.512MW) is currently in the process of bringing its first refurbished unit online. It is paid $0.07/kWh and they are petitioning for some rate increases but probably won't get them. If anything, once the insane wind and solar contracts start expiring, our rates may actually go DOWN

One of the biggest components of our electricity, as noted in my comparison, is the cost of delivery, which has a set base rate and then an additional charge based on kWh added in. This is directly tied to population density of the area you live in. Rural ratepayers are hit much harder by this. Much of this cost is due to the largest distributor in the province, Hydro ONE, having to fund the connection of privately owned VRE assets to the grid, which, given the size of Ontario, and their distributed nature, was extremely expensive. While both rates and delivery are regulated by the province, the province of course allows for recuperation of legitimate expenses, which this was.

Physical location and market structure have a big impact on the viability of grid-tie systems. Cost is of course a significant factor and, due to superior output profiles at lower latitudes, this is certainly made an easier sell in places like California, Texas...etc.

 

[ZZman]

What might your bill have been without the solar?

 

[Shannow]

I pressed play and put down a deposit on rooftop PV for my place last week.

I had a bonus at work and decided to buy a laptop, new phone, and rooftop solar (and maybe Heat pump)....nothing extravagent.

Biggest factor was that I'm the third last house on our radial feed, and there are people not being able to install them at all if there's enough solar on their radial feed due to voltage rise....being an early adopter means that I have the optionality of being able to do it, rather than waiting until others have pulled the trigger.

Subsidies (yes I'm a hypocrite) may not be long for this world.

6.6KW system, $3,500 installed ($2,500 off for Subsidies and Carbon Credits - I could save and trade the credits...but no).
$0.27/KWh buy rate
$0.15/KWh sell rate.
$1 day connection
15KWh/day consumption for the 4 of us.

Washer and drier are smart, so I can programme them to run during the day.

Depending on how the first winter's bill works, I might look at inverter spilt system A/C heat pump for the central living area.

Run the heat/cooling during the day while no-one is here
* minimising the gas (same price as unleaded per MJ of energy) in heating season...running the heat pump only when there's excess electricity and there's reasonable ambient temperature on the evaporating coils.
* using "spare" electricity for cooling in summer while the house is locked up and no-one home.

House is double brick, very high thermal mass, so tinkering a bit with the heat balance should pay off.

 

[4WD]

I'm more likely to look at DC lighting only for solar … our HVAC loads are heavy in 90F to 100F summers and then add extreme humidity … all that with a woman who says "I'm bursting into flames" … (when not at 70F) …

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by Nick1994

Jeff, what would you say your average electric bill was before?


Guesstimate: $150 or less, per month as an average.
Now I pay $10 per month to be on the grid.
There are rebates, or whatever they call them, based on how much juice our panels supply.
I am not sure I can count on this; I don't trust PGE. They lie and burn down my beautiful state.
Heck, they caused an explosion in San Bruno not so long ago.

 

[tony1679]

Originally Posted by Reddy45
Originally Posted by tony1679
^ABSOLUTELY THIS! Solely these two factors are the reason I haven't considered solar. Makes sense everywhere else, but not in tornado alley. Oddly enough, a local co-op does have a "solar garden." I've been watching carefully.


OEC's solar garden on I35 between Moore and Norman? Yeah we'll see how well it fares this Spring.. May is upon us LOL
Yup

. If a semi doesn't crash through it first that is...

 

[4WD]

Three sides to a fire triangle …

Regardless of ignition … there was a fuel problem …

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by 4WD
Three sides to a fire triangle …

Regardless of ignition … there was a fuel problem …


Interesting that too...listening to podcasts last week on the "old" style of burning that the native Americans used, and the Australian Aboriginals, a key part of the burn was grazing animals.

Using fire to clear litter for grass, and having herbivores eat the new grass and fertilise it....then burn the uneaten litter.

The animals aren't consumed by the slow moving smokey fire, they are herded by it.

"Controlled" prevention burning doesn't achieve (all) of it's stated goals.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by Reddy45
Politics aside, people who live in bright areas really should be on solar.. and not just for power but also for water heating or pool heating.

Despite what many people believe, the electric companies really do NOT want to have to build extra plants to accommodate the additional base load. It's absurdly expensive, takes a lot of lawyers because of the environmental stuff, NIMBYs, etc..

So that's why we see an increase in demand-side management now, but I think when battery tech gets good enough we'll see incentives from the electric company to supplement at each residential meter.



I would enjoy being on solar but the electric company will not allow it because if more residents move to solar they can not make a profit.

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by Nick1994

Jeff, what would you say your average electric bill was before?


Guesstimate: $150 or less, per month as an average.
Now I pay $10 per month to be on the grid.
There are rebates, or whatever they call them, based on how much juice our panels supply.
I am not sure I can count on this; I don't trust PGE. They lie and burn down my beautiful state.
Heck, they caused an explosion in San Bruno not so long ago.

$130 a month is $1,560 a year saved. $12,000 for the panels makes it less than 8 years to break even. Not bad at all!

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by Reddy45
Politics aside, people who live in bright areas really should be on solar.. and not just for power but also for water heating or pool heating.

Despite what many people believe, the electric companies really do NOT want to have to build extra plants to accommodate the additional base load. It's absurdly expensive, takes a lot of lawyers because of the environmental stuff, NIMBYs, etc..

So that's why we see an increase in demand-side management now, but I think when battery tech gets good enough we'll see incentives from the electric company to supplement at each residential meter.


Grid wouldn't work in that case.

I was in a meeting with one of the heads of the Market Operator recently, and he said that residential solar (large solar in general), but predominantly residential solar was giving them a lot of hard work, as previously they had to use weather predictions to predict demand, and ensure that there was enough there...now they have to predict the weather to predict how much energy will be available from roofs, large solar and wind as well...then ensure that there's enough tradtional power (or load reductions) to compensate.

Rooftop solar doesn't facilitate frequency stability and sudden changes in load if a tranmission line trips, making for less overall security.

And as for cost, at $1,000/KW being about the cost of solar...when you NEED it to replace thermals, you need 4 times the nameplate rating to get the capacity....that's $4,000/ equivalent kilowatt...it's not so cheap then.

Then batteries...currently the levelised cost of storage is 25c/KWh round trip (free electricity needs to return 25c to amortise the Tesla big battery)...so solar/battery get very expensive very fast...oh, and the Tesla battery loses about 20% of the energy that goes into it...so that times the nameplete requirement becomes 5 times.

Battery for my place is about $10k with a 10 year warranty (way less than the panels)...that's 21c/KWh

 

[dlundblad]

Very nice.

We probably wouldn't see that gain here, but I've considered looking into wind power.. Very windy at our house. I would much rather have sun vs. wind though. Lol.