18.9 mpg!

[umungus1122]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
One wonders if you will ever, ever learn...

California burns. The Eastern Seaboard freezes under ten foot of snow. Florida & The Gulf get battered by hurricanes of increasing ferocity and now we see record breaking 'bomb cyclones' that cause chaos to all the bits in the middle. It's already gotten worse and it's probably going to get MUCH worse.

The automotive tech is there to get you from A to B getting 60 miles per US gallon and yet you 'celebrate' getting 18.9 mpg. Bizarre!

 

[Nyogtha]

Well this is taking the thread in a different direction with an op-ed piece.

The vast majority of pollution globally comes from industrial emissions, not mobile point source emissions, yet there are those in the Western world that would guilt us over our vehicles. Ignoring the fact that Western low sulfur and ultra low sulfur fuel regulations have required numerous hydrogen plants that strip hydrogen from natural gas, and turn the carbon in natural gas into CO2 to join the CO2 emissions from the hydrogen plant reactor furnace for this highly endothermic reaction. To say nothing of emissions contributions from countries like China & India; China building coal to syngas plants to move the pollution to the countryside to shift things from cities like Harbin & Bejingto put a better facade forward, India with the worlds largest refinery at 1.2 million barrels a day producing fuels for export primarily for the European market with Indian emissions law permits instead of Western ones. Electric power generation remains a huge source of emissions globally.

The Clean Air Act was launched in the USA due to inversion layer from industrial emissions caught in an inversion layer that resulted in fatalities, not from mobile point source emissions.

So I feel zero "guilt" owning and operating my V8 Hemi powered truck. I live on 1.5 acres that back up to a working 700 acre cattle ranch, and we regularly haul brush cuttings and landscsping yard debris to our city recycling station where that material is converted to low cost mulch. Our yard is pretty well xeriscaped and semi-wild. I also use my truck to tow my trailer mounted BBQ pit, and occassionally other trailers. Thete's no way I'd buy a Smart Car for example to let my truck moulder between occasions for direct uses for a truck, that's just nonsense for me. So my truck is my daily driver and utility vehicle. I doubt many Europeans live on a 1.5 acre yard bordering a 700 acre working cattle ranch though. It's quite affordable here in Texas, even in the 7th largest city in the USA.

Personally I've reduced more pollution than most individuals could possibly generate through my career, what with installation of high efficiency industrial furnace burners, recycling tons (or tonnes, take your pick) per day of spent FCCU catalyst as cement plant feedstock much like power plant fly ash, increasing overall refinery process unit efficiencies and heat trains, etc. I feel zero guilt about my current vehicle ownership nor past ownership of muscle cars with large V8 engines and 4 barrel carbureators, and see no reason for someone to choose to try to make me feel guilty with the globalization of so many things these days. So much of folks with such attitude looking at things with only one eye open at best, since they've offshored many of the emissions associated with the goods they purchase including transportation fuels.

That's my side for my op-ed piece.

 

[SonofJoe]

Nyogtha,

I think we are similar but different...

I too can lay claim to doing more to reduce emissions than the average bloke in the street. Figuring out how to up a crude furnace inlet temperature by 10°C by rejigging your heat exchanger train is worth an awful lot of tailpipe emissions. Figuring out how to do without a 1960s vintage hydrotreater furnace (with no heat recovery section), likewise. Figuring out how to make engine oils without over-use of unnecessary additives and making the optimum use of base oils, I'd also argue 'does its bit' for the environment if you multiply by a billion litres a year.

But here's the thing. Not everyone is like us. And not everyone 'needs' a truck. The OP 'went to the doctor'. Did this require him to drive up mountains and through deep fast flowing fords... or did he just get on the highway a couple of miles from where he lives and drive on the flat in a glorified series of straight lines?? And did he fill his truck with his family, or did he, like any normal person, just go by himself to see the quack? So why the F250??

About new Chinese & Indian oil refineries working to lower emissions standards. Really? Maybe, but I doubt if these refineries are any less thermally efficient than their Western counterparts because you know full well that energy loss is anathema to process engineers whatever the colour of your skin.

So everything we do as a species (generate power, drive, fly, heat our homes, etc, etc). Should we stop doing all this? Clearly not because no one wants to go back to living in The Stone Age. But given the evidence of global warming & climate change is (unless you willfully shut your eyes & ears to it) increasing compelling, then maybe just maybe, individuals everywhere should start thinking about what they individually can do to minimise their contribution to the problem. And I know this is hard to comprehend in modern day America, with its emphasis on rampant, unchecked individualism but there are generations of Americans to come, long after you've shirked of your mortal coil. Should you not be thinking of them and what you're bequeathing to them?? I think the answer is emphatically YES!

 

[Nyogtha]

SonOfJoe,

We are shaving the onion so thinly with what we're doing in the Western world, with regard to bang for the buck, at this point in mobile point sorce emissions versus what's going on industrially especially in Asia. Plus we turn a blind eye (due to what motivation) on how much cleaner tailpipe emissions increases industrial emissions (such as hydrogen generation to manufacture low sulfur and ultralow sulfur transportation fuels - current focus is on ship bunker fuels).

You don't understand what I said about China building plants in rural areas for coal gasification to send syngas to the cities with zones with several miles around with so much SOX & NOX pollution nothing can be farmed with farmers displaced to give the facade of less visible pollution in the cities the world regularly sees on the news. I said absolutely nothing about Chinese refineries.

You also neglect the effect of SOX & NOX sulfur emissions from Indian refineries that have very different permitting requirements to inexpensively manufacture transportation fuels for Western Europe. I'm pretty confident the Reliance refinery in Jamnagar actually has higher thermal efficiencies in furnaces and boilers with knowledge that primary NOX reduction is achieved by lowering flame temperatures through flue gas recirculation (like automotive EGR) and staged combustion. So, lower fuel consumption but much higher emissions of pollutants of greater concern than CO2. Especially from the FCCU. I was in on then bleeding edge field trials of SOX & NOX FCCU additives in 2001-2003 in the USA and I'm confident neither those nor a wet scrubber are in use in Jamnagar.

FWIW, neither do the refineries refining Venezuelan crude oil in the Dutch Caribbean islands of Aruba and Curacao. A very different permitting regime than The Netherlands in Europe, but still a part of The Netherlands. You should see the plumes of yellowish acid gas from the stacks & whitish stuff from the flares on those Caribbean refineries, being dispersed by the trade winds.

I too use my truck for many doctor visits. I've beaten Stage 1B lung cancer from all signs, in fact I have an appointment with my oncologist / hematologist Tuesday. I have no less than 4 specialists I visit routinely and feel no guilt driving my truck to do so.

If I did away with my truck I would replace it with a V8 Hemi Dodge Challenger if I were to go the passenger car route as I enjoy muscle cars.

My latest personal gift to the next generation is making sure to minimize obstacles for my niece to succeed who has just been admitted to the Honors Program at the University of Houston to study Industrial Engineering. I know there are bright individuals in the generations following me that will contribute as much or more than I have in their due time.

Yes we have some similar experiences and education but very different perspectives.

 

[gman2304]

2005 Chevy 1500 with 342 diff, about 16.5 mpg on a good day.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted By: lawrencerd
Funny how it's all relative what we are pleased with.


And here I was disappointed the other day when my best MPG over a 30 mile stretch was 35 in the Corvette. I figured with the cruise set to 65, the transmission in 8th gear, and only running on 4 cylinders, on a perfectly flat road using non ethanol premium, that it would get over 40. I had done a best of 37.1 in my previous Corvette without the cylinder shutdown technology. Although perhaps my MPG will get better once the engine is broken in more (only has 1500 miles on it currently) and also driving in warmer weather might increase MPG too (it was close to the freezing mark)

 

[hemitruck]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Nyogtha,

I think we are similar but different...

I too can lay claim to doing more to reduce emissions than the average bloke in the street. Figuring out how to up a crude furnace inlet temperature by 10°C by rejigging your heat exchanger train is worth an awful lot of tailpipe emissions. Figuring out how to do without a 1960s vintage hydrotreater furnace (with no heat recovery section), likewise. Figuring out how to make engine oils without over-use of unnecessary additives and making the optimum use of base oils, I'd also argue 'does its bit' for the environment if you multiply by a billion litres a year.

But here's the thing. Not everyone is like us. And not everyone 'needs' a truck. The OP 'went to the doctor'. Did this require him to drive up mountains and through deep fast flowing fords... or did he just get on the highway a couple of miles from where he lives and drive on the flat in a glorified series of straight lines?? And did he fill his truck with his family, or did he, like any normal person, just go by himself to see the quack? So why the F250??

About new Chinese & Indian oil refineries working to lower emissions standards. Really? Maybe, but I doubt if these refineries are any less thermally efficient than their Western counterparts because you know full well that energy loss is anathema to process engineers whatever the colour of your skin.

So everything we do as a species (generate power, drive, fly, heat our homes, etc, etc). Should we stop doing all this? Clearly not because no one wants to go back to living in The Stone Age. But given the evidence of global warming & climate change is (unless you willfully shut your eyes & ears to it) increasing compelling, then maybe just maybe, individuals everywhere should start thinking about what they individually can do to minimise their contribution to the problem. And I know this is hard to comprehend in modern day America, with its emphasis on rampant, unchecked individualism but there are generations of Americans to come, long after you've shirked of your mortal coil. Should you not be thinking of them and what you're bequeathing to them?? I think the answer is emphatically YES!
.

Proof ? What proof? Not one prediction from the I'll of Al Gore and such has come true.

 

[ARB1977]

Originally Posted By: Reddy45
Would you believe that I'd be lucky to get even 18mpg in my Tacoma? And the V8 Tundra owners of the same year would be lucky to see 16 LOL

18? My stock 15 gets 21-23 mpg.

 

[Silverado12]

People need to reproduce less; that will solve the pollution problem better than anything else as the world becomes more modern w/more people using energy. Now I feel guilty for trading my eco car (Chevy Cruze) on a V-8 Challenger. Not kidding either. We all need to do our part for the next generation. But anyways, 18 mpg is excellent for the F-250. My best with the Challenger has been 28 average on a trip.

 

[Chris142]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
One wonders if you will ever, ever learn...

California burns. The Eastern Seaboard freezes under ten foot of snow. Florida & The Gulf get battered by hurricanes of increasing ferocity and now we see record breaking 'bomb cyclones' that cause chaos to all the bits in the middle. It's already gotten worse and it's probably going to get MUCH worse.

The automotive tech is there to get you from A to B getting 60 miles per US gallon and yet you 'celebrate' getting 18.9 mpg. Bizarre!

ya well live in a place that would destroy a car.

 

[SonofJoe]

Just back from a very nice lunch (I'm on holiday in South Africa again). Seems this thread has livened up a bit since I left it.

Where to start?

Proof! Must have proof! Where's the proof??? This is what happens when sensible people start to argue less like engineers and more like cheap, strip mall lawyers (aka Saul Goodman). You cannot have absolute proof! If you're making predictions several decades into the future, by definition, you cannot have 'proof' of what has not yet happened. And because you don't have 100% proof, you only commit yourself to a course of action that results in absolutely nothing ever changing! As a philosophical concept, is it just me that thinks this is just plain dumb? You do not have to have proof to do good stuff. Proof often only comes after the event. Every half decent scientist knows this.

Yes, its pretty obvious that emissions in China & India aren't great and that Western emissions pale in comparison but again, is this a sensible argument for not doing anything at all?? 'He's doing it so why can't I do it?' is a philosophy that belongs in the school playground, not at the heart of global attempts to temper the worst potential effects of climate change. And anyways, the smoggy, polluted China & India you see today won't be the China & India you see in a decade's time. I can remember back to when Japan was the 'dirty' industrial nation (anyone else remember Minimata?) but they 'cleaned-up' in the blink of an eye.

Anyway, while its sort of unfair to single out the US for criticism, it is fair to say the US is the nation that needs most to change. I honestly believe that Americans see the world through a distorting prism. This prism makes things look normal & acceptable to US citizens but take away the prism and things look very strange & often as not, dangerous. Guns, drugs, police thuggery, obscene levels of obesity, having armed forces that could take in the entire rest of the world and win, being best buddies with a nuclear armed regional bully and in the context of this thread, the gross inefficiency of the cars you drive & your willful blindness to see how this might impact the world...well all I can say is it looks very weird...

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
One wonders if you will ever, ever learn...

California burns. The Eastern Seaboard freezes under ten foot of snow. Florida & The Gulf get battered by hurricanes of increasing ferocity and now we see record breaking 'bomb cyclones' that cause chaos to all the bits in the middle. It's already gotten worse and it's probably going to get MUCH worse.

The automotive tech is there to get you from A to B getting 60 miles per US gallon and yet you 'celebrate' getting 18.9 mpg. Bizarre!



The technology for 60mpg has been around for MUCH longer than you imply, and it was NOT conceived in the Prius! But you're right, we should just outlaw every emissions-producing thing like the internal combustion engine, every factory, and oh yeah, we need to regulate cow farts too. Sounds suspiciously like the middle ages. Maybe if you cut down on the emissions from that pipe you're smoking you'd be able to see past your nose. The alarmism you're polluting with has been proven to be only a miniscule impact in climate, nothing compared to solar activity, and no worse than numerous other times found in the geological record. We're all along for the natural ride, always have and always will be.

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
One wonders if you will ever, ever learn...

California burns. The Eastern Seaboard freezes under ten foot of snow. Florida & The Gulf get battered by hurricanes of increasing ferocity and now we see record breaking 'bomb cyclones' that cause chaos to all the bits in the middle. It's already gotten worse and it's probably going to get MUCH worse.

The automotive tech is there to get you from A to B getting 60 miles per US gallon and yet you 'celebrate' getting 18.9 mpg. Bizarre!


Would a small k-car be usable on a farm? desert? outdoor?

Oh... and they are kind of demonizing diesel small engines in Europe now too......

 

[SonofJoe]

I'm pretty sure you can use a K-Car outdoors. Maybe not indoors so much though...

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Ny lil Rogue gets 22.5 ave right now. That's Horrific even with Full time AWD and 3500lbs++ to move.

Better mileage with a CVT? NO! Not if its a junk design CVT.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

ARCO, get an Outback. It should be much better, even keeping AWD, CVT, and nearly 3500lbs. But I'm clearly biased

 

[umungus1122]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'm pretty sure you can use a K-Car outdoors. Maybe not indoors so much though...
I'm not sure where you'd put the bed full of 2x4s, mulch, lawn equipment, coal, etc. in that car, or how'd you get down a dirt road with 1.5 ft. deep mud holes and ruts.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: umungus1122
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'm pretty sure you can use a K-Car outdoors. Maybe not indoors so much though...
I'm not sure where you'd put the bed full of 2x4s, mulch, lawn equipment, coal, etc. in that car, or how'd you get down a dirt road with 1.5 ft. deep mud holes and ruts.



This takes me back twenty years to when my daughter was a bolshy, provocative teenager who liked nothing more than a good argument with her boring, uncool Dad.

Her favourite tactic was to always argue from the most extreme case because this offered the greatest differentiation in whatever point she was trying to make. Now my daughter turned out to be very bright cookie and pulled a First at Kings, but back then, she always lost the argument because the exception is exactly that and by definition can't ever reflect 'the greater norm'. Exceptions never win generalised arguments.

To dismiss a K-Car for the reasons you stated is to argue the exception. I've been to the US more times than I can count and the majority of commuters I've seen aren't hauling lawn equipment or timber or coal (??). It's just one bloke hauling nothing more than a briefcase, plodding to & from work (or, in the case of the OP, 'going to the doctors'). And you have these things called freeways and beltways which, if I recall correctly were made out of concrete & tarmac, not mud.

See where I'm going on this?

 

[pandus13]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...
To dismiss a K-Car for the reasons you stated is to argue the exception. I've been to the US more times than I can count and the majority of commuters I've seen aren't hauling lawn equipment or timber or coal (??). It's just one bloke hauling nothing more than a briefcase, plodding to & from work (or, in the case of the OP, 'going to the doctors'). And you have these things called freeways and beltways which, if I recall correctly were made out of concrete & tarmac, not mud.

See where I'm going on this?


The OP is indeed leaving out in the "boonies" in the desert. so not a leisure only commuter.

Since I own a wagon and a mini-minivan in a sea of cars, CUVs, SUVs, Pickup Trucks I get your point, but it's not going to happen in US until we see couple other things you see in your own homeland:
-greater taxes on vehicles ownership
-engine size restrictions or pay even greater taxes
-more expensive fuel
-more expensive vehicle acquisition costs

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: pandus13
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...
To dismiss a K-Car for the reasons you stated is to argue the exception. I've been to the US more times than I can count and the majority of commuters I've seen aren't hauling lawn equipment or timber or coal (??). It's just one bloke hauling nothing more than a briefcase, plodding to & from work (or, in the case of the OP, 'going to the doctors'). And you have these things called freeways and beltways which, if I recall correctly were made out of concrete & tarmac, not mud.

See where I'm going on this?


The OP is indeed leaving out in the "boonies" in the desert. so not a leisure only commuter.

Since I own a wagon and a mini-minivan in a sea of cars, CUVs, SUVs, Pickup Trucks I get your point, but it's not going to happen in US until we see couple other things you see in your own homeland:
-greater taxes on vehicles ownership
-engine size restrictions or pay even greater taxes
-more expensive fuel
-more expensive vehicle acquisition costs



Funnily enough, I agree with everything you said. I just can't ever imagine the US government upping the cost of fuel or car ownership (unless you count whacking some very un-American tariffs on imported steel, aluminium & foreign built cars but that's another thread entirely!).

However I could imagine a scenario involving an 'event', or series of events, so severe...call it an environmental 9/11...that shocks the system into action. I'm thinking a natural disaster of epic proportions that results in many thousands of deaths. It might be a Katrina on steroids or a storm of unparalleled ferocity that completely overwhelms both individuals & 'the system's' capacity to cope. I think the analogy with 9/11 has merit as no one saw that coming (although in retrospect, they should have). If ever such a catastrophic environmental event hits the US, there will be a public outcry and demands as to why the US didn't do more earlier to mitigate things. Of course by then, it will be too late.

Sorry to be gloomy but 9/11 was at heart a failure of imagination so I make no apologies for trying to see into the future...